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Hybrid Vehicles Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel The Inconvenient Truth About Ethanol
921 messages, Last post on Oct 07, 2009 at 10:53 AM
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 13, 2008 3:27 pm) And how do you think that ethanol, that has done nothing to cut importation of foreign oil, is helping reduce food and gas prices? Don't you find it odd that as soon as the ethanol mandate was passed by Congress that gas prices started going up along with oil prices? Or the price of corn has risen dramatically since the mandate. That Wheat and Soy crops were not planted to make room for the boom in corn? Or was that just all coincidence? If you are one of the beneficiaries of the ethanol boondoggle, I fully understand your position. If you are just wanting an alternative no matter what the cost in human suffering I do not understand. I will not argue that ethanol is not a viable alternative fuel. It is the use of food for bio fuels I find ridiculous. If it was just about ethanol, we would remove the tariff from Brazilian ethanol and get them to produce it with sugar cane. That makes more sense.
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Well now I have to worry about my beef fed with the ethanol by-product "Distillers Grain" Distillers' Grain In Cattle Feed May Contribute To E. Coli Infection ScienceDaily (Jan. 22, 2008) — A new study suggests that the addition of dried distillers’ grain, an ethanol by-product, to cattle feed may contribute to the prevalence of E. coli O157 infection in cattle. The researchers from Kansas State University, Manhattan report their findings in the January 2008 issue of the journal Applied and Environmental Microbiology. Escherichia coli O157 is a significant food-borne pathogen of which cattle are major reservoirs. Colonization by E. coli O157 in cattle occurs in the gut and is shed in the feces. Diet is considered to be one of the factors influencing the prevalence and shedding of E. coli O157, emphasizing the need to examine dietary components and their impact on the physiological environment of the gut and the survival of E. coli O157. Distillers’ grain is the coproduct that remains following the distillation of ethanol. It may be dehydrated to produce dried distillers’ grain (DDG) which is then commonly used as livestock feed. In the study cattle were administered one of three diets including: no dried distillers’ grain, steam-flaked corn and 15% corn silage with 0 to 25% dried distillers’ grains, or steam-flaked corn with 5% corn silage and 25% dried distillers’ grains, after which fecal samples were collected and tested for E. coli O157. Results showed that cattle fed with 25% dried distillers’ grains and 5% or 15% silage had higher prevalence of E. coli O157 than cattle fed a diet without dried distillers’ grains. “The results indicate that there is a positive association between dried distillers’ grain and E. coli O157 in cattle, and the findings should have important ramifications for food safety,” say the researchers. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080122102428.htm In reality cattle should never be fed CORN. It is bad for them. Looks like the ethanol boondoggle is making it worse.
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 13, 2008 3:32 pm) I did,  "Many ethanol plants now produce 2.7 gallons of ethanol and about 18 pounds of animal feed from each bushel of corn." http://www.iowacorn.org/cornuse/cornuse_20.html ""We've a pretty steep learning curve with distillers grains here (compared with use of corn)," Droulliard said, "because it takes time to figure out how to use it." "Distillers grains and cattle health issues also were addressed, with Droulliard noting there are risks such as mycotoxins in the feed, along with high mineral content, especially sulfur. Monitoring is advised. " http://www.hpj.com/archives/2008/jun08/jun2/Biofuelsco-productfeedingis.cfm?titl- e=Biofuels%20co-product%20feeding%20is%20Roundup%20topic 2008 Impala E85 - combined MPG = 16 RUG - combined MPG = 22 AAA National Average as of 6/13/08 RUG = $4.066/22mpg = 18.5 cents per mile - the winner  E85 = $3.344/16mpg = 20.9 cents per mile BTUs Diesel - 129,500 Gasoline - 114,100 E85 - 81,100 The potential energy in E85 is less than that of gasoline or diesel. "As ethanol demand grows, so does 'Dead Zone' in Gulf of Mexico" http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/22/bloomberg/bxdead.php
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 13, 2008 3:38 pm) Oil prices started rising because China and Indias inustry stsrted to ramp up. im 2007 the US planted 92M acrea of corn vs 86 in 2006. Now in 2008 we are back down to about 87. There isnt any human suffering in the US. We are a nation of overweight people. Field corn used for ethanol cant be eaten by humans which is used for animals. So it is no different than using weeds for fuel. The tariff on Brazillian ethanol is planned on goingaway in the furture anyway. |
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Jun 13, 2008 7:09 pm)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 13, 2008 3:48 pm) |
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 5:17 am) Henry Ford desinged his first cars to run on alcohol. This is hardly a new industry. When someone comes up with a better plan than ethanol I might listen. To destroy our country from within just to keep from giving OPEC money is counter productive. And now with weather and flooding in the mid-west, how reliable is that ethanol crop going to be? And at what cost to other food crops are we going to grow corn? The list goes on and on.
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 5:17 am) That may be the ONLY benefit to Corn ethanol. However if you are a student of recent history you know what happened the last time we had the same government manipulation of the ethanol business. It was decided in the late 1970s that producing ethanol with corn would be a good way to wean ourselves off of Saudi oil. We the people financed the building of about 110 ethanol stills in the Midwest. Today 90 of those stills are gone or in stages of rusting away. Corn Ethanol as a fuel is impractical now just as it was then. The same fate befell Brazil with sugar cane ethanol. The sugar became more valuable than the ethanol and they abandoned the stuff. It was even worse in Brazil as they had sold 1000s of cars that would ONLY run on ethanol. Those people were out of luck when they could not get the stuff. Back to today. We are mandated by Congress to have a minimum of 2.9% ethanol in our gas across the country. No problem in the Midwest where it is processed. CA the largest user of gas has a real problem. We have to ship every gallon of that crap from the Midwest by truck. Trucks that cannot run on ethanol. Our gas prices jumped immediately so you could have a job in the Midwest. It was Politics as usual. The only real money being made is by ADM and Verasun. They have a guaranteed profit with no risk. We are backing all the loans to build those stills. So when the Congress comes to the realization that we cannot continue in this corn ethanol madness. Guess who gets stuck with those loans. The Tax payers, you and I. When they finally come up with a way to make ethanol from waste or switchgrass or whatever. We will be subsidizing that also and the corn stills will be worthless. If your town was one of the ones that benefited from this scam, save your money because it is NOT long to be. Your corn still will be rusting away like so many others, and the workers will be scrambling for the few jobs at WalMart. And CORN is NOT a good diet for cattle. I am sure they are coming up with some new antibiotic to kill whatever problem that arises from feeding them distillers grain. |
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Replying to: jkinzel (Jun 14, 2008 5:53 am) At around 1900 there was enough moonshine to run the few cars being built. With 235 million cars on the road it would take more land than we have to grow our own fuel. Worst part is with us using every bit of land we have for corn ethanol it will not be enough to reach the mandate. Cut the tariffs on Brazilian ethanol and drop the subsidy on corn ethanol and let the market decide if they want the stuff. Save the Gulf of Mexico from the Iowa Corn farmers fertilizer. Oh I forgot. Their crop will be going down the river to the Gulf this year. Maybe it is a sign???
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Replying to: tfb27 (Jun 14, 2008 5:13 am) EPA has a F150 4WD FFV getting 10 mpg with E85 and 15 mpg with RUG. The 2WD F150 is 11mpg. Where did you get 12.5? What is also interesting is that EPA has adjusted the price of gasoline up to near the current level, but they did not adjust the E85. AAA is reporting E85 at $3.562 with an adjusted price of $4.688. While EPA still lists $2.51. From the EPA web site. "Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15000 annual miles and a fuel price of $ 4.04 per gallon of gasoline and $2.51 per gallon of E85 . Use Your Gas Prices & Annual Miles" That little piece of disinformation wouldn't be because the government wants to push ethanol, would it? http://www.ethanolmarket.com/fuelethanol.html Look at the rack prices! They are higher than EPA $2.51 lists for retail. What about the 45 cent a gallon subsidy? It should be phased out. And why are we putting an import tax on ethanol from Brazil? "It means that a 3.5L gas engine made to run on gas can get the same torque with a 3.0L E85 engine to close the gap." You cannot ignore that ethanol does not have the same energy in a gallon as RUG or diesel. Prices being equal, diesel will kick booty. That is especially true in the torque department. I am with gagrice on this one. Producing about 5 billion gallons a year of corn ethanol was OK. But, allowing 15 billion gallons a year of corn subsidized ethanol was stupid. And you may want to go ask the chicken and turkey farmers what they think of the price of corn. Chicken feed is about 70 percent corn. And while the ethanol may help the price of RUG, it does nothing for diesel. You use a lot of diesel to transport ethanol either by truck or train.
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