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Toyota Camry Hybrid MPG-Real World Numbers

988 messages,  Last post on Jun 09, 2013 at 7:57 PM

You are in the Toyota Camry Hybrid Forum.

What is this discussion about? Toyota Camry Hybrid, Fuel Efficiency (MPG)

Messages Page 84 of 100

#822 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [larsb] by orly1

Feb 03, 2009 (12:44 pm)

Replying to: larsb (Feb 02, 2009 7:15 am)
larsb, you have a lot of posts i love camry and toyota in general - except i'm having same problem as mra605 dec 20, 2008, real world LOW MPG with my 7 month old TCH.
 
i'm also being told by dealer and toyota customer service that vehicle is "running as it should". my MID displays 26-28 MPG ave.
 
i've read a lot on this forum and others and honestly; who in their right mind would pay the extra cost of a TCH if they didn't expect to get EPA estimates or very close to it? to say to mra605 or any one else getting 5-10 MPG less than EPA estimate for TCH that it is "normal" is insulting.
 
i am beginning to think these forums are biased/edited (to include only the most glowing reviews). OR toyota is ignoring a very real issue which is a high concern for certain TCH owners.
 
this post is not targeted at larsb; simply a reply to last post relating to most recent LOW MPG post (mra605).
 
i'm convinced i am driving TCH optimally.
 
QUESTION REMAINS: does this forum contain ANY posts where people have had low TCH MPG and the issue was resolved by toyota?
 
there was one case where a honda hybrid owner sued over less than EPA - anyone know the outcome?
 
thanks

#823 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [orly1] by cdn_tch

Feb 03, 2009 (3:37 pm)

Replying to: orly1 (Feb 03, 2009 12:44 pm)
orly1, please tell us what part of the country you live in because the weather does matter to the overall mileage of any vehicle. As I said in post #814, there are many factors in play when it comes to mileage.
 
If you live in a cold(er) climate, the effects are real.
 - If it is cold outside, the ICE needs to run longer before it gets to operating temps that permit mode 3 and mode 4 operation. Worse, once the ICE shuts off, it starts to cool and eventually will need to restart just to keep itself at the proper temps. Since it is cold, you also have the internal heater on. That heat is from the coolant circulating in the block. As you take that heat and blow it inside the cabin, it needs to be replaced by the ICE running.
 - short trips also hurt. In the summer, my ICE is at operating temp within a few blocks, now in the winter I'm pulling into my parking spot and the engine will finally turn off when stopped (6mi)
 
My last 2 tank averages were 21.5 & 24.6 mpg, In the summer my averages were around 40. In my Explorer, the summer average was ~18mpg, winter it was ~10.
 
The 5-10 mpg less than EPA IS normal in cold(er) climates. It is a result of regulations (emissions over mileage) and physics. Please don't feel insulted by it, it just is that way.

#824 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [orly1] by larsb

Feb 03, 2009 (3:54 pm)

Replying to: orly1 (Feb 03, 2009 12:44 pm)
Well, first of all, one cannot successfully "SUE" an auto manufacturer for having a car that does not meet EPA estimates. It's not a guarantee. It's an ESTIMATE.
 
And the only way a suit like that would ever succeed is, FIRST, if you could prove that Toyota or the EPA "lied" on a test result- and that could NEVER be proven.
 
Another required portion of a successful suit would be to have ZERO CARS of that type which could achieve EPA "estimates" and that also could never be done. An automaker is never going to sell a car of which zero numbers of that car can achieve EPA estimates.
 
The most you can hope for, if you have an issue with your car in particular, is to get it declared a "lemon" by an arbitrator. That would require that your dealer and Toyota would have to certify that YES, your car's HSD system is working properly and YES, it is not capable of performing proper hybrid propulsion, which would mean the car IS a lemon.
 
The problem with that is that if indeed all the hybrid components ARE performing up to spec, then the CAR WILL INDEED be able to achieve EPA results under at least SOME circumstances.
 
I'm almost certain that no one has ever successfully had a hybrid car declared a Lemon because it was not meeting miles per hour requirements.

 
So what can I do to help you, you ask?
 
First, you should try to find a knowledgeable hypermiler in your area and let them test your car. There are many, MANY variables that go into achieving maximum MPG out of a hybrid car:
 
Tire pressure.
Length of trip.
Oil type.
Tire specifications.
Driving style.
Temperature during trip.
Road conditions.
Weather.
 
I've got a story for you. A couple of years ago (maybe 3) I had a local couple contact me and say, "We can't get good mileage out of our Honda Civic Hybrid, and we located you on the Internet and was wondering if you could help?"
 
I met them at a local mall. First thing I noticed: They had replaced the OEM tires and rims with low profile tires and custom (heavy) chrome wheels. This immediately meant that they were losing a ton of MPG right there.
 
I also noticed that their driving style was completely wrong - they were leadfoots, or at least, they liked to quickly accelerate up to "slightly above the speed limit" as a normal course of affairs.
 
I gave them the tips I could, and showed them that with a slightly modified driving style, they could improve their MPG. But those tires knocked 3-5 MPG off their chances right away.
 
From experience, I can tell you that the Toyota HSD technology in the TCH is very sound, and very effective when used properly. My personal lifetime average is around 34.1 MPG after 41,000 miles. GH.com has at least 50 owners with as much as 40+ mpg average.
 
If your car cannot at least 34 MPG when tested by a local hypermiler, then there is something wrong with the car and Toyota should repair it.
 
Good luck, and keep us posted.

#825 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [cdn_tch] by orly1

Feb 03, 2009 (4:55 pm)

Replying to: cdn_tch (Feb 03, 2009 3:37 pm)
thanks cdn tch for the information,
 
re: driving optimally (i've already considered some or most of these things)
 
live in ohio, car in heated apartment garage. rarely use "internal car heater", just front/rear defroster without fan. i turn these off at stops so AS can engage. (otherwise car will stay at 0 MPG)
 
as far as ICE working until car heats up - far left dial is past "blue zone" almost immediately (few blocks) and stays almost in middle for the rest of trip. shouldn't that mean TCH is at operating temp?
 
MID and dial show battery mode or EV mode engaged, but yes mostly ICE mode.
 
5 - 10 MPG variations are acceptable for some drivers, but i bought my TCH expecting very close to EPA estimate (1-2 deviation) and a return on my 29K investment. forums like these with thousands of "meets and exceeds EPA" posts were also an influence - including non-paid endorsements by media.
 
whenever someone posts like me here, it seems they get a few responses like those i have received and then nothing....
 
at least there is a moderator and i hope NOT to suffer the verbal abuse that is rampant on the john true v.s honda site.
 
thanks,

#826 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [orly1] by cdn_tch

Feb 03, 2009 (5:32 pm)

Replying to: orly1 (Feb 03, 2009 4:55 pm)
as far as ICE working until car heats up - far left dial is past "blue zone" almost immediately (few blocks) and stays almost in middle for the rest of trip. shouldn't that mean TCH is at operating temp?
 
On another forum, someone recently posted that while it looks like it is at full operating temps, it is still about 20C less than during the summer (70C vs 90C).
 
You say your TCH is 7 months old, what was your mileage in the first couple of months?
 
Overall, I think you will see your averages start going up with the outside temps in a few months.

#827 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [cdn_tch] by orly1

Feb 03, 2009 (5:48 pm)

Replying to: cdn_tch (Feb 03, 2009 5:32 pm)
thanks cdn tch,
 
only first tank of gas "met or exceeded" EPA estimates. after that can sometimes reach 31 MPG tank ave., usually directly after fill up if i take her out on highway with cruise on.
 
then next day MPG slowly returns to between 26 -28 and sometimes highway drive won't improve it.
 
i want to reply to larsb, think he is correct, i might have a lemon
 
please give me any new ideas. thanks

#828 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [larsb] by orly1

Feb 03, 2009 (6:40 pm)

Replying to: larsb (Feb 03, 2009 3:54 pm)
dear larsb,
 
thanks for all the posts, read many of them before i posted so i believe i have a good understanding of these mileage variables. besides wouldn't the dealer/mechanic detect more obvious things like tire pressure or specs?
 
yes, that's what i thought, a "hypermiler" should "borrow" this car and see if driving technique changes anything.
 
my scientific mind says; there should be a way to objectively determine if consistently LOW MPG is user error OR something wrong with this particular car
 
perhaps i'm dreaming but my first thought was... rather than denying my assertion that MPG has been for most part 26-28, TOYOTA should play "hypermiler" and offer to take the vehicle themselves (for a reasonable amount of time) and see if they can get close to EPA estimate.
  
worse yet, for Toyota to claim that 5-10 below EPA estimates is "normal" and they never implied otherwise during sale? PLEASE! MPG is biggest selling point.
 
BTW: thank you so much for proving you are not a "ringer" for Toyota with your honest and practical reply.
 
as for The problem with that is that if indeed all the hybrid components ARE performing up to spec, then the CAR WILL INDEED be able to achieve EPA results under at least SOME circumstances.
 
the last post on the john true vs honda page says something like "would you buy a gallon of milk that advertised... will taste and have the nutritional value of milk under at least SOME circumstances... carton may or may not contain full gallon etc."
 
a small MPG variance from EPA would have been acceptable. i believe Toyota and/or Honda would be better off dealing with the consumer than putting up such a fight. it's all about good customer relations and truth in advertising.
 
as far as i can tell, since my TCH checks out o.k. on their computer - there is NO NEXT STEP.
 
Toyota has nothing in place to deal with loyal consumers who are having my same problem. i suspect there are enough people in my boat that these law suits will continue especially since consumers are being told "deal with it".
 
i very much appreciate the fact that i am not being called "stupid" by this forum for basing my choice of car on advertising, media forums and blogs and EPA MPG estimates. the backlash against john true vs honda has been shameful.
 
my TCH may be a lemon OR Toyota may be facing a bigger problem. They would not be the first to "deny, deny deny" until someone took legal action.
 
in all, i'm very disappointed with Toyota right now.
 
thanks

#829 of 988 Re: Real gas saving [orly1] by cdn_tch

Feb 04, 2009 (10:26 am)

Replying to: orly1 (Feb 03, 2009 6:40 pm)
I only gave this a couple of minutes,
 
here is the EPA site that has various graphs
 
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/quickdds.htm
 
here is the graph of the EPA highway driving cycle.
 
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/hwfetdds.gif
 
And the city cycle.
 
http://www.epa.gov/nvfel/methods/uddsdds.gif
 

#830 of 988 by orly1

Feb 04, 2009 (1:25 pm)

hello cdn tch,
 
thanks for the reply. are you talking to me? i really don't know what i'm looking at. if it helps improve performance - i'll bite.
 
here's my REAL problem. i made my purchase based on advertising, media forums and blogs and EPA MPG estimates all of which promise a return on investment through gas savings.
 
another thread HERE
 
http://townhalltalk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0dc3d7/530!make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybr- id&ed_makeindex=.f0dc3d7
 
doesn't seem to have a single post about real world estimates being consistently off. there is always someone to correct the math... so if my numbers are 26/28 cty/hwy (rarely reaching 31 MPG) aren't i consistently 25% under EPA estimate?
 
plain and simple, i never would have bought this car if Toyota had said "your EPA MAY vary up to 25%, we don't guarantee performance nor assist customers with poor MPG performance"
 
HERE's a suggestion... someone should track these LOW MPG claims and invent a "do-hicky" that can attach to the car to distinguish between driver error and true car performance under average conditions.
 
What's my next step - other people who post with this issue seem to just give up

#831 of 988 Re: [orly1] by larsb

Feb 04, 2009 (1:41 pm)

Replying to: orly1 (Feb 04, 2009 1:25 pm)
orly1 - I'm talking to you.
 
Next step:
 
You really need to find a local hypermiler who can test your car.
 
There is something wrong with the HSD system in your car only if that person cannot do what they think they can do with the MPG.
 
If you were in Phoenix with your car, I could answer that question in less than an hour.
 
I don't want to downplay your issue in the least, but it's really not rocket science: Either your car's HSD system CAN perform properly and there is nothing wrong with the car, or it cannot perform properly and there IS something wrong with the car.
 
Some further interrogation:
 
What kind of display system do you have - the digital system in the middle stereo area, or just the basic one that comes with the normal display cluster?
 
Do you notice the car moving into electric mode (called E-Mode ) when it is warmed up, and the battery charge is good, and speeds are below 42 miles per hour?
 
Are most or all of your daily trips very short, and/or on dirt or gravel roads or in very hilly areas?
 
Do you have the original OEM tires on the car, inflated to at least 32 PSI each?
 
Have you learned the "feathering" trick to force the car into E-Mode?
 
Does the gas engine shut off at red lights?
 
If you are running the heater all the time, and your trips are short and in cold weather, you will definitely see lower MPG because of those factors.

Messages Page 84 of 100

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