Last post on Jan 14, 2009 at 11:53 AM
You are in the Ethanol - E85 FlexFuel
What is this discussion about?
Alternative Fuels, Hybrid Cars, Coupe, Hatchback, Truck, Sedan, Wagon, SUV
Dec 27, 2007 (6:54 pm)
I can tell you that there are tuners getting really good and re-programming computers to run E-85. Nearly any car can be made to run on the stuff, you just have to get the tune correct which means advancing the timing, possibly adding bigger fuel injectors and re-setting the fuel tables on the cars computer. E-85 has 30% less btu value, so all this needs to be taken into consideration when changing the tune.
I have an SCT 4 position switch chip in my car that allows me to have 4 custom programs. This means, that I can switch programs on the fly and adjust for different fuels being used.
All the talk about fuel lines etc being different is turning into a bunch of bunk. The biggest challenge to making the car run correctly is the high-variation in E-85 quality. There are 4 different seasonal blends that are used during the year and they range in ethonal concentrations between 70 to 85%. The octane differences are great which means you have to tune the car to the least common denominator.
There is no economic reason to use E-85 as others have already pointed out. But the advantages offered to the weekend racer are great. Buying 115 octane fuel for $2.60 is CHEAP when compared to 100 octane racing fuel for $7.00. And none of these guys give a crap about material compatibility as you don't put thousands of miles on a car that you race (if there is even a problem in the first place).
I do know one tuner who drives he modified car daily and runs E-85. I asked him if he was concerned about the material issue and he stated "that is what the manufacturers tell people so they don't do what I did". True? I don't know. He knows more then I do.
I also saw a young kid at a pump with a rust-bucket putting E-85 in the tank one day. I asked him if the car was altered or re-programmed. He indicated that the car was a piece of crap, had 200k miles on it, and never ran better since using it. What does he have to loose? Though I certainly would not advise using E-85 a new car with a warranty.
#15 of 23 Re: Engine modification from gasoline to E85 [fathermore]
Dec 30, 2007 (6:27 pm)
FlexFuelMyRide.com for an affordable conversion kit and NearE85.com for a way to find E85 stations. If you travel, you can even plot out an intinerary and they have atool to find all the E85 stations along your route.
#16 of 23 Re: Engine modification from gasoline to E85 [sirlena]
Dec 30, 2007 (7:56 pm)
I don't see any info on modifying the most popular cars in the USA. The Toyota, Camry & Corolla, the Honda Accord and Civic. Does this company guarantee the ethanol will not corrode aluminum engines? Don't expect to travel in CA on E85. Only one station in the whole state sells E85.
#17 of 23 Re: Engine modification from gasoline to E85 [gagrice]
Jan 02, 2008 (1:09 pm)
I think you need to download thier Order Guide. There's only 6 popular injector connectors..Bosch EV1, Bosch EV6, Delphi, Toyota, Honda and NipponDenso. So, those japenese vehicles can be converted also.
As far as warranties, they advise to buy an additional warranty if you are concerned, but personally, I am not. I have read a lot about and it's only rubber that the auto manufacture's where concerned with in the 80's (not metal), that's why there are no more rubber fuel lines. Plus, gasoline and ethanol both have anti-corrosive chemicals in it, to protect against corrosion in the gas pumps and for vehicles. Also, everyday use is not the issue, storage is. As long as the fuel keeps moving...there should be no issue. Brazil has been using for over 20 years...
#18 of 23 New way to power vehicles?
Jan 08, 2008 (11:17 am)
I came across this and thought it was interesting. The best part? It works with current engines.
Check this out
#19 of 23 Re: E-85 [waterdr]
Feb 21, 2008 (12:57 am)
In response to your waranty statement warning...check your Owner Guide. Most automobile manufactures correctly call out Methanol damage as not being covered, not Ethanol. Methanol corrodes metal and damages plastic and rubber. The only statement about E85 that you'll find in the OG is telling you not to use it if you do not have FFV. That is more about EPA than any possible damage. OEM has to certify vehicles to run on unleaded or E85. Those certs are seperate. So it would voliate EPA to tell you to do otherwise.
Also, due to the Magnuson-Moss Act, no one can VOID your warranty. They can deny repairs but the burden is on them to prove that an aftermarket part damaged whatever component they are denying. You have rights per the Magnuson-Moss Act.
And, the myths about ethanol being corrosive are just that, myths. All gasoline whether conventional, reformulated or oxygenated are regulated for such things as volitility, corrosivity, octane, and stability. There are standards set by the ASTM American Society for Testing and Materials. If E85 were as damaging as people claim, the nozzle would be a different size, like unleaded vs. leaded.
Boycott OPEC Everyday!
#20 of 23 Re: E-85 [sirlena]
Mar 03, 2008 (7:25 am)
Boycott OPEC Everyday!
Where do you think the oil comes from to run the tractors, trucks & combines to produce the CORN? Where does the oil come from that powers the tanker trucks that deliver the ethanol to the refiner? Then that same OPEC oil is in the tanker truck that hauls the mixed E85 to the handful of stations across the Nation that sell that crap. I would say OPEC is loving the ethanol industry as is the mega-AG companies like ADM. Of course there are all the little startups that are converting cars to run on E85. I just hope those people that convert a car over to E85 get sued when the owner is denied warranty coverage caused by ethanol damage.
From SAE on ethanol corrosiveness:
Catastrophic failures of fuel pumps used to transport ethanol have occurred in various facilities. Failures occurred in as little as 50 hours on pumps with a 2000-hour life expectancy. Post-failure inspection of the pumps showed corrosive pitting of the metal in the areas of sliding contact. Several potential causes, including cavitation, thermal expansion of pump parts, and fuel contaminants such as acetic acid were ruled out. Fuel samples from facilities with high pump failure rates passed all D 4806 specification tests for fuel-grade ethanol, including titratable acid by D 1613. However, pH readings as low as 2.0 indicated potentially corrosive fuels. Controlled tests on pumps and corrosion tests showed that pump failures correlated with fuel pH. Corrosive fuels were found to contain ethyl sulfate, which correlated with fuel pH. It appears that ethyl sulfate originates from sulfur dioxide, which is used as an antioxidant and antiseptic in the production of ethanol.
#21 of 23 Re: E-85 [gagrice]
Mar 06, 2008 (11:55 am)
That study http://store.sae.org/technical/papers/971648 was done on roller pumps and gear pumps used to deliver fuel-grade ethanol to a catalytic conversion facility (within the ethanol industry). NOT on fuel pumps used in automobiles.
The paper also gives it's Background.
"...fuel system corrosion is a familiar problem in Brazil, where fuel-grade ethanol contains up to 10 vol.% water and impurities such as acetic acid."
It also states that "these problems have been alleviated by changing fuel system materials, developing corrosion inhibitors and specifying limits on acidity, sulfur and chlorine in alcohol fuels. RECENTLY, limits on pH and electrical conductivity have been instituted in Brazil and advocated by workers in the United States."
Our commercial grade fuel has corrosion inhibitors and limits on acidity (on both E85 and conventional gasoline). Per the White Paper on Internationally Compatible Biofuel Standards, it is clear that Brazil has a different standard on acidity.
Limits and Methods:
Brazil Limit: 0.80 mg KOH/g max Method: ABNT NBR 14448/EN 14104
EU Limit: 0.50 mg KOH/g max Method: EN 14104
USA Limit: 0.50 mg KOH/g max Method: ASTM D664
Also, in chatting with a local gas station owner, he told me he pays to have water pumped out of his fuel tanks. It's something he must maintain to be compliant.
If there are over 100,000 non-fuel flex vehicles on the road with conversion kits running today, where is the outcry and postings about fuel pump failure? All the threads I have read where people have converted, are having no problems. In fact, they are amazed at the performance they have gained and find that a lot of these scares about mpg loss are blown way out of proportion (which is typically 5-15%).
Also, in states where the E85 fuel price is more than 15% lower than conventional gas, people are actually saving money over several years of use and that would pay for any future fuel pump failures, IF any occur.
#22 of 23 Re: E-85 [waterdr]
Apr 24, 2008 (9:32 am)
I am considering converting my daily driver to E85. I would really like to talk to this tuner that has done the same thing, or anyone else that actually has successfully converted their daily driver car to E85.
#23 of 23 Re: E-85 [bradguy]
Jan 14, 2009 (11:53 am)
I work for an auto parts supplier, we supply to all of the major automakers (for those of you who think your Honda or Toyota have superior parts than GM or Ford, in most cases you are kidding yourself). Unless the vehicle is certified as flex fuel do not use E85, there are many gaskets, hoses and components that are not tested to and will not stand up against ethanol.