Last post on Nov 09, 2013 at 5:09 AM
You are in the Toyota Camry
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Camry, Sedan
#710 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [mesquite57]
Jul 07, 2006 (2:54 pm)
I got my new Camry XLE V6 on 6/28 and it was made in Kentucky in 6/2006. I now have about 350 miles on it.
The only problem I have seen is the dangerous high rev RPM almost to the red zone, with no response in speed gain. My wife and I were on the freeway, stuck behind slow traffic traveling at about 42 MPH, when an opportunity came up to speed up and move to the fast lane. Much to our shock and dismay, the engine was revving up, but our speed was NOT increasing. I had to pull back into the slow lane. This is a surefire way to get someone killed.
I never before drove a car that did not speed up when the accelerator pedal was pushed down. I wish I had my old 1997 Camry XLE V6 back. I am now afraid of what might happen if I do need fast acceleration to pass, etc. and this Camry does not respond to my needs. This so called "Hesitation" problem can be a killer.
It was like this "Artificial Intelligence" was thinking "He is going 42 MPG, so do I want to let him go faster even though the accelerator pedal has been pushed down so that the engine is RPM revving to the red line?"
From what I have read in this forum, Toyota has no idea to fix how the accelerator pedal, engine speed, and transmission shifting problems that seem to occur around the 40-50 MPG range. Thus, at this point, I do not think that Toyota repair could fix it; as they only seem to make things worse when they worked on the cars of others who are on this forum.
Like someone else stated, how does "Artificial Intelligence" know what is going on in the real world situations?"
How can this so called "Artificial Intelligence" learn a driver, when, as in our case on a trip, we change drivers every 1 to 1.5 hours? Also how does "Artificial Intelligence" learning handle valet parking, Toyota repair people taking test drives, etc.?
#711 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [jimpctech]
Jul 07, 2006 (5:39 pm)
Is valet parking and mechanic's test drives really going to be enough mileage or high enough percentage your total driving to even matter?
#712 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [jaxs1]
Jul 07, 2006 (9:41 pm)
OK, what about switching drivers all the time and what about rental cars?
#713 of 5646 Camry V6 6AT transmissions. Smart? Artificially Intellegent?
Jul 08, 2006 (12:06 am)
apologies for going a bit off-road here, but personally i would caution the use of smart "artificial intellengence" in the context of transmission controls.
i wager my Canon A-1 SLR camera vintage 70's had as much or more adaptive control software and automation capability as a modern day transmission control unit.
is my camera smart just because it has programmable speed and aperature control priority settings?
is someone's video camera smart because it has been programmed to detect frame to frame jitter and perform image stabilization to offset the effects of say your blood pumping through the veins in your hand as you hold a very small mass up high?
people may conclude that because a device has been integrated with a computer, it is somehow "smart", possibly as "smart" as the persons doing the software programming. computerised system are not smart or artifically intellegent merely because they follow a programmatic course of sensing and interpreting input data and effecting some change in system output.
looks good on manufacturer ad copy though.
no computer can infer your intent when getting on the gas to change lanes for example, or making a left hand turn across on comming traffic after slowing or comming to a complete stop.
sure, car makers have added additional sensors and programming to interface with the ABS system to implement traction and vehicle stability control... but are those functions smart? are they artificially intellegent?
the point is, there are some limited-functions you may wish to provide adaptive control (learning up of parameters from numerous control input / response cycles) like shift logic perhaps. there are some functions which are not adaptive per se, but have a finite, bounded, well described characteristic or model of a problem space, and make an assessment that the vehicle and occupants are in harms way based on a comparison of vehicle sensor data and that model in a *very* deterministic / repeatible manner (like stability control).
smart or "i"- intellegent? as an engineer, i don't think i would associate these terms in the context of these control functions. as i said, those sales people responsible for ad copy... they can call it what they want, but i know where the real smarts are.
for yucks and giggles, imagine if stability control was also "adaptive" and over-time "learned" or tuned up a bunch of parameters because a driver liked to take the vehicle to the point of impending loss of control and imagine this kept opening up the window or boundary of the problem space to accomodate more driver proficiency.
now then, imagine it was programmed to be smart (but actually stupid in this case) to infer perhaps by the use of a different keyfob and/or seat weight sensor that another / different driver was behind the wheel, and reigned back in the acceptable safe control envelope.
and wonder if some morning you swapped keychains with your significant other or son / daughter and you were of approximately the same weight...
i doubt we will see this sort of "intellegence" in computerized vehicle automation anytime soon. imagine debugging a problem with that complex system; i can't imagine verifying and certifying its safety. imagine the legal / liability hurdles...
real-world, some manufacturers have difficulty putting the "smarts" in their cars to implement a battery saver feature and turn off interior cabin lights that have been left on with the engine off.
oh how comforting it is to understand how truely stupid our vehicles are.
personally, i hope they stay that way too no matter what that ad copy claims.
#714 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 6AT transmissions. Smart? Artificially Intellegent? [user777]
Jul 08, 2006 (11:23 am)
I'm also an electrical engineer. I agree with you that we don't know how much "intelligence" is in the ECT unit. However, it is an Electronically Controlled Transmission with Intelligence. So there is some software in the control unit doing SOMETHING. We just don't know what it is. I'm sure if you ask Toyota what, specifically, the "intelligent" software does you will be told that it is proprietary which it should be. They simply generalize and say "it adapts to your driving habits".
But they need to correct either the mechanics in the transmission (3rd to 4th RPM spikes and engine racing seem to be indicative of that) or they need to fix their software.
We also don't have any way of knowing the extent of these problems (what percentage of 2007 V6 Camrys are affected).
If it were software I would expect everyone to be having the same problems. It is also complicated by the unfortunate situation where many people may not even be aware of the problem thinking that "it is normal".
#715 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [jimpctech]
Jul 08, 2006 (11:43 am)
mine is the same way. I have to manually downshift the transmission to get it move out of it's own way.
Toyota will not help you. I am driving a
#716 of 5646 Are they going to throw more software at the problem?
Jul 08, 2006 (12:00 pm)
mesquite57, we are on the same wavelength.
it's even possible toyota doesn't know the extent of the "intellegence" as the firmware may be supplied by a vendor to toyota specification, and the visibiliy to that software may be restricted to a few individuals. it also spans potentially a few subsystems.
such is life with higher levels of complex systems integration.
knowing there is an issue and even locating it, it may take them a good deal of time and effort to develop and roll out a fix for it, and then the fix, like that for the hesitation issue may only mitigate, not resolve the issue.
i suspect, they'd have to do some serious regression testing if they even touch the sequencing because of the number of vehicles already out there. it has to be well behaved.
they've probably got some significant review scheduled with the programming team.
but, my inclination, like the hesitation issue affecting a sampling of the Lexus ES line, the Sienna, the Camry, the Avalon and ? Lexus/ToyotaDBW models (population size unknown), while there's plenty of room for a ECU/TCM firmware issue contributing to the root cause for the RPM spike, it may be ultimately based in a Hardware / part issue.
as i alluded to, they may try to mitigate this with a firmware / software update.
i suspect, but don't know this for certain, is that this is a tact they tried with the hesitation issue (apparently non-linearity / compliance / slop on the low-end of accel based on driver foot forces at an angle during application of the pedal).
in that case, it is apparent, a new flash (firmware load) did not appreciably help the situation. getting people to change how their foot rested on the pedal seems to bring the best results reported thus far.
a smart engineer in my domain once pronounced: you don't throw software at essentially a hardware problem. you fix the hardware.
exception might be a mars rover or other deep-space exploration vehicle designed specifically with that flexibility since you can't recall the craft back to mother earth once sent on it's journey to another world.
#717 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [mesquite57]
Jul 09, 2006 (5:39 am)
Just purchased a 2007 Toyota Camry, literally 2 weeks ago, and noticed that my carpeting was soaking wet -- dealer told me there was a cobweb in the air conditioning line. Carpet still soaked - keeping an eye on the problem. Anyone heard of this problem???
#718 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [nancy17]
Jul 09, 2006 (5:51 am)
Get it back to the dealer with another opportunity to fix it, before the carpet is stained/ruined.
#719 of 5646 Re: Camry V6 with 6AT transmissions replaced. [nancy17]
Jul 09, 2006 (11:03 am)
For the life of me, I can't understand how a cobweb "in the air conditioning line" could result in your car's carpet becoming soaking wet.
You didn't state whether or not the dealer removed the offending cobweb or what their solution to the problem was. I'm curious. Thanks.