Last post on Jan 22, 2013 at 9:37 PM
You are in the Toyota Camry
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Toyota Camry, Sedan
#5345 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [bdyment]
Mar 20, 2011 (6:05 am)
Good Morning bdyment:
Maintaining a vehicle is a very interesting process. ----- On one side, the manufacturer recommends what they consider to be an acceptable level of service, but in the real world, vehicles are used in many different styles, and under a different set of circumstances. ----- Throughout the automotive industry, we see a rash of engine oil sludge problems in a variety of name plates, and we see engines burning oil as they accumulate mileage. ----- Many times the owner of the vehicle has maintained the vehicle according to factory specifications, and in some nameplates, a battle then begins between the customer who wants the manufacturer to honor an extended warranty, and a manufacturer who wants to VOID the warranty claim because of the number of units out in the marketplace with the problem of the potential for the problem. ------- My two vehicles, (2007 V6 Camry & 2010 4 cylinder Malibu), recommend service intervals of 5,000 miles. If I adhere to these figures and my engine develops a problem, will Chevrolet or Toyota say the my driving habits are VERY STRESSFUL, and I should have serviced the vehicle sooner, therefore we are not going to honor your extended warranty. ------ (You might think that this has not happened in the automotive marketplace, but if you take the time to do the research on the net, you will see one or more of the automotive nameplates have taken that very position with their customers who have serviced their vehicles at the dealer. ----- (These customers cannot afford to repair their own vehicle, so as such, they cannot afford to take the manufacturer to court!) --- I have chosen to divided the "recommended service intervals" in half, and have all of the serviced performed at the selling dealer. Should I experience a problem there is no way that the dealer, or the vehicle manufacturer can claim that I did not service my vehicle under the terms and conditions of the owner's manual, and / or the requirements of the extended warranty. (EXAMPLE: ---- If I was to experience a "sludge condition" on one of my vehicles at 2,500 mile service, when the recommended service was 5,000 miles, and all of my service was done at the dealer, the manufacturer would have to replace the engine under the terms and conditions of the extended warranty.) By giving my vehicle this level of service, I am insuring that my vehicle will run at the most efficient level throughout its life, and I am protecting my warranty interests. ----- The alcohol in the gasoline today is putting added stress on the engines. (Alcohol is a cleaner, not a lubricant.) ----- The combustion chamber is a "hot / dry place!" ---- Valves, pistons and valve seats are operating under very negative conditions. Maintenance and fuel additives do have a place in the daily operating process. Not all additives are equal, and not all additives do the job. A dealer will not sell an additive to a customer that will destroy the vehicle. That is simply not good business. In the marine business we use additives in the fuel, because marine engines work very hard. A boat going down a river at 28mph has an engine that is doing 3,200 rpm. (Show me land based vehicle that has an engine that is doing 3,200rpm at 55mph!) ------- Best regards. ---------- Dwayne
#5346 of 5628 Re: Discontinuation of offering BG Service? [tribibian]
Mar 20, 2011 (8:35 am)
"..our local Goodyear dealer..."
Sorry , but that statement goes toward discrediting anything you might have to say.
#5347 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [djm2]
Mar 20, 2011 (8:41 am)
How do you know, decide, which additives have a positive effect/result, vs NEGATIVE, or even neutral...?
"...alcohol is a cleaner, not a lubricant.."
I have often used gasoline as a "cleaner", even better than alcohol, does that mean I shouldn't be fueling my cars with same....?
#5348 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [wwest]
Mar 20, 2011 (10:15 am)
By a cleaner, I mean that the fuel is "DRY" in that it lacks a lubricant, like the old fuel that had lead! ----- Without a "lubricant, " carbon will stick to the underside of valves and in the grooves of the pistons. ----- Without a "lubricant" valve seats will be eaten away. ---- Gasoline is used to cool the "in tank fuel pump," and a lubricant in the gasoline will help to lubricate that pump! ----- When you run the tank low on fuel, you damage the pump. ---- A pump should last 100,000 miles. DO NOT use gasoline as a cleaner. TOO dangerous! ---- Best regards. ----Dwayne
#5349 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [djm2]
Mar 20, 2011 (6:03 pm)
As you've probably noticed, I share your appreciation for intelligently selected additives, but I did want to add a few comments about alcohol, carboned ring grooves, and high temperature sludge.
Although alcohol does not have the self lubricating qualities of gasoline, and when added to gasoline, does undesirable things to fuel economy; it also offers several redeeming virtues. One is that it adds oxygen to the combustion, which causes blended fuels to burn cleaner than straight gasoline. The oxygenation reduces carbon monoxide emissions, and ALSO REDUCES THE AMOUNT OF CARBON DEPOSITS IN THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER. Alcohol used in fuel also acts as a cooling agent; which enables the use of higher compression ratios or greater spark advance without inducing preignition.
I agree with your observation that carbon deposits are a much greater problem when using oxygenated fuels than they were with the old non-reformulated gasoline; but the additional carbon deposits do not come from the alcohol. Instead; the carbon results from specific additives which are used in fuel as lead substitutes; to protect the valve seats and to provide additional lubrication. The phenomenon of spark plugs coming out all black with carbon appeared shortly after unleaded fuel came into regular use in the late 1970s; long before alcohol was being added to fuel. Although I deplore the widespread use of alcohol as an oxygenating agent; I am at least happy that the industry acknowledged the health danger of the MTBE which was promoted by Chevron as an alternative oxygenating agent. So I think it is important to not give alcohol a bad rap for something it doesn't really do. I much prefer to lose 10% fuel economy than to be exposed to yet another carcinogen. (Of course; alcohol is also a carcinogen; but it is apparently less of one).
The sludge which has become an engine problem in the last ten years is quite the opposite of the sludge which used to be found in engines of the 1950s that were using non-detergent oil; or the sludge found in more recent engines which never had their oil changed. These older types of sludge were formed as a result of engines that were rarely driven far enough to thoroughly warm up the oil and boil off the contaminants; but with the use of detergent oil, these contaminants are normally trapped by and suspended in the oil, and then periodically removed by regular oil changes and filter replacements.
But the late model sludge is called "high temperature sludge." This sludge is created when engine oil comes in direct contact with very hot objects. The cooling systems in late model engines have been redesigned to decrease the amount of heat lost to the radiator; in order to speed the warm up process and to improve vaporization of the incoming fuel mixture (in order to further reduce emissions and increase fuel economy). In some engines; this has resulted in local hot spots in cylinder heads; where the lubricating oil is exposed to higher temperatures than it previously encountered. And this hot contact can cook the oil and generate sludge from the oil breakdown. The solution for this problem has been for engineers to again redesign the cylinder heads; to eliminate the hot spots and even out the temperature. But those of us who own vehicles produced during the learning curve have an ongoing problem with high temperature sludge. Hey; ain't that a great motivating force to move people to buy newer models?
#5350 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [zaken1]
Mar 21, 2011 (6:18 am)
Good Morning zaken1:
YOUR POSTING WAS OUTSTANDING! ------ Kindly be advised that I was not trying to to blame the carbon on the alcohol! ------ I was just trying to give some reason why using HIGH QUALITY additives could be beneficial to both the performance and the longevity of the automotive engine.
Every Sunday I make it a point to check all the fluids on both vehicles in preparation for the week's activities. The Camry now has 63, 100+ miles and when I pulled the dip stick to check the oil, the oil film on the stick is as clean as the first day that I took delivery of the vehicle in January of 2007. ----- This is the way it should be on any vehicle, but I would doubt that it would be in that state, if I changed my oil and filter every 5,000 miles, as suggested by the manufacturer. ------ When I owned the 2003 4 cylinder Honda Accord, the recommended oil and filter change was every 10,000 miles, but the recommended interval by the dealer was 3,750 miles. (What does the dealer know about "real world usage" that the manufacturer does not know?) ------ (I would love to pull the dip stick of an Accord that has been given 10,000 mile oil and filter service at 63,000+ miles!) ----- As stated in previous posting, when I purchase a vehicle I put 100,000 mile "top of the line manufacturer's extended warranty" from the dealer, and I give the vehicle outstanding service. ----- Once I get to 100,000 miles, I trade the vehicle because I do not want to finance an expensive repair, such as a transmission, but at the same time, I want the vehicle to perform at 100% up to that point!
Alcohol in the fuel, in the marine industry, is a disaster! ----- Boat owners have problems with plastic / fiberglass tanks dissolving, and this material being carried into the fuel system! ----- There are also engine problems associated with this fuel tank issue. (Some boats have aluminum tanks so this problem does not exist. But on the other side of the issue, water and alcohol in fuel, in an aluminum tank, can cause electrolysis.) ---- In addition, long periods of storage over the winter, due to moisture in the surrounding air, causes "phase separation" in the fuel tank. ----- (The gasoline and the alcohol & water separate.) ----- Additives are poured into the tank, prior to storage, to help to prevent this action from occurring! ----- Outboard Motors are affected more that an inboard engine with regards to the quality of the fuel. ----- Marine fuel suppliers have recognized this problem by developing a fuel know as Valve-tec which is nothing more than additives and a lubricant in the fuel.
The subject of "oil and filter" service will be a debate for as long as automobiles are on this earth. Everyone has an opinion about the "best oil," service intervals, and every manufacturer has their own personal recommendations. ----- But there is a bottom line to the entire process. 1.) The owner needs to give their vehicle high quality service to keep it running at peak efficiency during the period of ownership, ----- 2.) The owner needs to protect their investment in terms of the original and the extended warranty, ----- 3.) The owner needs to recognize that the manufacturer is going to look for any reason not to honor their warranty "if" they can prove owner abuse. ---- (If the owner of the vehicle changes the engine oil at 5,000 mile intervals, as recommended by the manufacturer, and the engine develops sludge, the manufacturer is going to blame the owner of the vehicle for neglect, and as such, they will not honor the extended warranty.) ------ When this happens, the owner of the vehicle is responsible for the cost of the repairs. The cost of an engine this could range from $5,000.00 to $10,000 dollars. An oil and filter change costs me $40.00 at the dealer with the BG additive. Let's assume that a replacement engine for the Camry would be about $7,500.000 dollars. If I change my oil and filter every 2,500 miles in 63,000 miles, I have changed my oil about 25 times at a cost of $1000.00 dollars. (In 100,000 miles it will have cost me $1,600.00 dollars.) This maintenance keeps my engine clean and keeps my warranty in good standing! ------- I guess it is a personal thing! ------- Best regards to all. ------- Dwayne
#5351 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [zaken1]
Mar 21, 2011 (3:50 pm)
This is a very informative post; thank you. So, I'm assuming that the Camry is a "late model engine which has been redesigned (...)". I noticed that the warm-up process for my Camry, even though I'm in Canada where the cold winters can be brutal on some days, my car heats up in NO time. Where a car would take about 5 minutes of driving to warm up, mine does it in 2. I often drive less than a mile for it to reach the halfway mark on my temp gauge.
So when did this learning curve end exactly, or is it still going on?
#5352 of 5628 Re: Burning oil [Canc]
Mar 21, 2011 (6:30 pm)
I know many people on this board are going to disagree with me, but on "cold winter mornings," I start my vehicle, and let it warm up while I remove the ice from the windows. ---- I have decided a long time ago, that I would not drive a vehicle in the cold weather, until I get some heat from the heating system. ---- Since I have a six speed automatic transmission, and I can operated it in the manual mode, I only allow it to shift to the 3rd gear while driving on the city streets. ----- Once the engine temperature reaches "normal operating temperature" I place the transmission selector into full automatic, and enter the highway! ----- This works for me! ----- Best regards. ------ Dwayne.
#5353 of 5628 Re: Discontinuation of offering BG Service? [wwest]
Mar 25, 2011 (12:55 pm)
Re: Dealer Discontinuing BG Service for Toyotas
My indicating that GoodYear continues to offer BG SERVICE for ALL makes of vehicles goes to support the probability that BG servicing may, in fact, still be considered for maintaining longevity of the vehicle; my statement should not be construed as a contradiction of the Dealers' inability to offer this service.
I am simply requesting Forum members to share their knowledge, or experience, towards commenting on the use, or non-use, of the BG System as administered by Toyota Dealerships; it would be helpful, here, if Readers not utilize my observation, that GoodYear continues to offer BG Service, to preclude them from providing useful responses to my initial inquiry.
#5354 of 5628 Re: Discontinuation of offering BG Service? [tribibian]
Mar 25, 2011 (1:26 pm)
Goodyear, or Firestone will sell/HYPE ANYTHING that has a hefty profit margin.
Most worthless, "snake oil" type products do.