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Honda Fit, Honda Fit Hybrid, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback
#46 of 95 Re: Your government in "action [sd_driver]
May 16, 2006 (10:41 am)
"Fine. The gov needs $ to build roads, etc.
But the idea that you punish people financially for purchasing high-mileage vehicles, when we need to weaning ourselves off poisonous oil dependency, is absolutely ludicrous. And any idiot politician that advocates that should be (and will be) drummed out of office--federal, state, or local."
I think the time will come when the taxes will have to change. It is not a "penalty", it is a "reality". But it will likely be a while before this takes effect. Politicians are rather slow sometimes, and will have to see the highway funds shrinking before they change the tax codes. So breathe easy for now...
I must point out that the two parts of your post do not match - if the gov needs $$, they have to come from somewhere, and it won't be from gas taxes if everyone is getting high MPG.
#47 of 95 Re: Your government in "action" [stevedebi]
May 16, 2006 (11:24 am)
It varies from country to country, but a realistic value for the registration tax on a car like the Jazz 1.2i or 1.4i in Europe is about $1,700.
On a car with a 3.5 liter engine it is about $14,000!
That might explain why even companies like Mercedes and BMW have a wonderful selection of small, efficient engines in Europe.
#48 of 95 Not going to happen
May 17, 2006 (10:02 am)
I'm not so sure the Fit will be hybridized. According to a press release dated 5/16, Honda's plan is to bring a new, unique vehicle to fill the sub HCH slot.
"Introduction in the U.S. and Canada in 2009 of a new, more affordable, dedicated hybrid car."
Here's the link.
If this were going to be the hybrid Fit, they wouldn't be calling it a "dedicated" hybrid. With allocations for the US expected to be 100,000 units, I think this hybrid will could replace the HCH and put the kibosh on the HFH.
It's very possible that this dedicated hybrid will be based on the Fit. (Hence all the rumors about a Fit hybrid.) But it won't be the same car. My guess is it'll be based on the next Fit's structure, but have a more aerodynamic shape.
#49 of 95 Re: Not going to happen [varmint]
May 17, 2006 (3:51 pm)
It could also be the replacement for the Insight, while the Fit is still hybridized.
#50 of 95 Re: Honda Fit Hybrid
May 17, 2006 (4:23 pm)
As a previous owner of a Honda Insight, I don't think the Insight's powerplant put in a Fit will work all that great. Given the Fit is about 600lb heavier, before adding a battery pack, the power output would be pretty weak.
I can't remember numbers, but the Insight wasn't a slouch when it came to getting off the line, but with 600+lb more weight, it sure would be.
Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just notthe best arrangement. In the Insight, I found that the motor just didn't assist as much as I'd like. Give it double the torque output, and it would have been very nice. Then the battery capacity wasn't as great either.
I ended up trading the Insight in on my current car, because I just lived too close to work for it to 'stretch it's legs'. The Insight needed 12-15 miles of good highway driving to regenerate itself.
No doubt, I was able to get some VERY impressive fuel economy numbers. Once from Austin to Fort Worth and back rated 72mpg. From Austin to San Juan Capistrano (South of LA) and back averaged 68mpg.
With the US mandating cleaner/better diesel fuel starting this year (or was it next?), I'd be much more interested in a turbodeisel Fit that gets 50+mpg than a hybrid.
(as an aside, I don't own a Fit yet, I'm in contact with an internet sales manager at a dealer close to where I live. She says it would be about a month before they could get what I want [silver sport MT], and I have to see what they'll give me for my trade in)
#51 of 95 Re: Not going to happen [backy]
May 17, 2006 (5:16 pm)
Fukui announced a 4 cyl diesel, plans for a V6 diesel, a new fuel cell vehicle, and plans for a dedicated hybrid - all 2-4 years in the future. But he forgot to mention plans to build a Fit hybrid next year?
#52 of 95 Re: Not going to happen [varmint]
May 17, 2006 (5:49 pm)
Well, he also didn't mention a few other significant bits of news like the upcoming next-gen Accord, due in a year or so. Maybe the release was focused on all-new stuff, like the new plant, new diesels, new hybrid model. They have to save some news for other months.
#53 of 95 Re: Not going to happen [backy]
May 18, 2006 (10:28 am)
I don't think the world need Mr Fukui to tell us there will be another Accord.
Seriously, he was focused on new innovations over the next few years. It wasn't a talk about existing product lines. The way the whole thing is put together gives me a double-grande dose of doubt regarding a Fit hybrid.
Originally, when the rumors first appeared, Fukui all but denied them. Those rumors were based on leaks suggesting a low(er) cost hybrid which was smaller than the Civic. Given Honda's strategy for using existing models to build their hybrids, the Fit was a logical assumption. And, if this dedicated hybrid uses the Fit chassis, it makes the assumption all the more acceptable.
What Fukui just announced explains how the rumors may have formed as well as why Fukui denied them.
#54 of 95 Re: Honda Fit Hybrid [frayadjacent]
May 18, 2006 (3:00 pm)
"Honda's IMA system, IMHO, is just not the best arrangement. "
I am so glad to hear that coming from a previous Insight owner. When I hinted that the physics of the IMA were not sound - any gains may have been due purely to the smaller engines that Honda fitted to that particular Civic and the Insight - over on the HCH board I am sure some members there wanted to skin me alive !
I think I wrote, half seriously, that the IMA is what you get when a group of mechanical engineers try their hand at electrical engineering.
In reality, and I speak from personal experience, it is very hard to break a corporate culture heavily based on successes had with another discipline, in this case internal combustion engine design. Successful hybrids are going to need an engine with a significantly different profile.
If the Insight had been a series hybrid using an induction motor pinioned 10:1 to the differential as per EV1 I am sure that there would have been an entirely different outcome. Without the EV1's 840lbs of battery the Insight would have had no problem with those 8 second to 60mph speed ramps.
But I digress, I also suspect that Honda made the common mistake of resting its future on just the one design team.
Someone pointed out that if you drive at 60 for more than 45 minutes then reclamation of energy when braking to a standstill is negated by the losses incurred by hauling the 100lb HV battery around in th first place ! (the penalty estimated in the increase in rolling resistance comes out as 200 watts 60mph).
There is only one justification for regeneration through the recapture of potential and kinetic energy and that is for a pure battery electric vehicle where you are having to lug a gradually depleting battery around with you 24/7 anyway. Then the recapture makes perfect sense to use this already existing structure to absorb that energy. BUT to deliberately install, pay for and accomodate a battery just for this one task is totally ludicrous. I am waiting for the penny to drop on this one for Honda. To be fair the Toyota Prius is also suspect on this count now I think about it.
I am interested in the Fit because my Echo's lease is due to expire soon and that's why I follow this board, not to discuss hybrid theory. The Advanced Hybrid Eng is where I normally hang out.
#55 of 95 Re: Honda Fit Hybrid [toyolla2]
May 18, 2006 (3:16 pm)
...any gains may have been due purely to the smaller engines that Honda fitted to that particular Civic and the Insight...
I don't know why members of the HCH board would want to skin you alive for saying that. I thought that was pretty common knowledge. Isn't the primary reason for the electric motor (and battery) to provide a boost to the small gas engine for acceleration, and secondarily to allow the gas engine to shut off at stops, and (for HSD) to allow the car to run at low speeds for short distances on electric power alone? I would think in urban stop-n-go driving there would be some gas savings from the autostop and electric-only driving, since regenerative braking would happen more frequently in that scenario.