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Toyota Yaris, Hyundai Accent, Car Comparisons, Hatchback
#20 of 443 Re: Pros and cons [tjw1308]
Oct 01, 2006 (2:30 pm)
I'm not sure how you are predicting reliability for the Accent hatch, since it's a brand-new design. Not even Consumer Reports has taken a shot at predicting reliability for it yet. Maybe they realize that because it's a new design, and the reliability of Hyundais has improved with each new generation, they should wait until they have some data to make a prediction.
How many Yaris hatchbacks have you seen at your dealership with a stick, ABS, and side bags/curtains?
I think you are right about the Yaris having more gloveboxes--doesn't it have one in front of the driver too? As for cupholders, the GS has two and the SE has four. How many does the Yaris hatch have? (The Accent sedan has eight, which is kind of overkill since it can only seat five!)
A/C is standard on the Accent SE, and optional on the GS. I have read posts in Town Hall from people looking for really basic cars w/o air, so maybe the fact that the GS can be had w/o air is appealing to some. I just wonder how many GS models will actually be shipped w/o air.
The resale equation is interesting. Let me give an example to show what I mean per my earlier post. Let's say someone could buy either an Accent SE or Yaris. MSRP with destination on the SE is $14,495, invoice is $13,591, Edmunds' TMV in my area is $14,040. A comparably equipped Yaris (as close as they can be anyway) lists for $14,950 including the mandatory (in my area) Cold Weather Package. That is also the Edmunds TMV price.
Now let's make a reasonable assumption that there will be a rebate on the 2007 Accents in the near future. There has been a $1000 rebate on the 2006 Accent for some time, and as you have pointed out every 2006 Hyundai model has some sort of rebate. So I don't think it's a big leap to think there will be one on the 2007 Accents once the supply of 2006s is gone.
So the purchase prices for sake of this example are $13,040 (TMV less rebate) for the Accent and $14,950 for the Yaris (TMV, assuming no rebate). After five years according to ALG's estimates, the Accent will be worth 23% of its MSRP and the Yaris will be worth 32%. That's $3334 for the Accent and $4784 for the Yaris. But the Accent actually cost $13,040. So over five years, the Accent buyer lost $9696 in depreciation, and the Yaris buyer lost $10,166. Please check my math on this example, but it looks like the Yaris buyer lost more money in five years than the Accent buyer did.
So that's an example, and I think a realistic one, as to how a "good deal" can offset residual differences.
#21 of 443 Re: Pros and cons [backy]
Oct 01, 2006 (3:20 pm)
Alrighty, here we go again lol...
PREDICTED reliability is based upon manufacturer's history with cars in this segment. If you compare the most recent models (the Accent and the ECHO), the ECHO has a decisive reliability advantage, so saying "predicted" reliability isn't that much of a stretch at all now is it? And FYI, the "old" generation cars are how companies like ALG come up with things like residuals on "new" models too, so using the "old" cars as guides isn't so crazy.
And while we're on the subject of predicting things, lets look at an old generation Accent compared to an ECHO (the old generation Yaris) in terms of resale value. Go out to www.autotrader.com . You don't even need to do anything but subtraction to see how much more a 5 year old ECHO is worth compared to a 5 year old Accent...
Even if we go with your example, the less than $500 difference will be made up almost in gas alone (even at 10k per, over five years... and even going so far as to figure it stays at an average over the next 5 years of $3.00 per gallon).
So is an Accent really less expensive to own??? Doesn't look like it.
The Yaris hatch has SEVEN drink holders btw... Overkill or not, I use one for a change cup, and one for my Cell phone cradle (the cup holder style) even when I have no drinks at all to carry. It's quite convenient. So much so, I'm thinking of making that feature a "blocker" .
PS: In terms of power to weight ratio, the "best" in class horsepower Accent offers an advantage of .0002 hp per lb (106/2293 vs. 110/2366). Feel the burn!
#22 of 443 Re: Pros and cons [tjw1308]
Oct 01, 2006 (3:52 pm)
I accept that you define predicted reliability as you stated. I think that it's more reasonable though to measure predicted reliability based on the actual car. So if a car is totally redesigned, as the Accent and Yaris hatches were for 2007, I think that has to be taken into account. Which is what CR does when it reports on predicted reliability for cars. Note that in their 2006 Annual Auto issue, they state for their predicted reliability for the Accent and Yaris simply "New".
The problem with using the reliability of old designs as a predictor of reliability of new designs is that is doesn't take into account the quality improvements--or slides in quality for that matter--in the new designs. Hyundai is trending up. Toyota has been strong for many years in reliability, but recently their executives and the press have voiced concerns over an increasing number of quality problems in Toyota's new models. Will the Accent continue Hyundai's upward trend in reliability? Will the Yaris continue Toyota's tradition for reliability? I think it's too early to say for sure. If I had to go only on the reliability of the old models, the Accent's record per CR and other sources is acceptable to me. I know that may not be the case with everyone.
You are correct that the $500 difference in my example would be made up in gas savings, assuming 10k miles a year or more over five years and $3.00 a gallon gas. If someone drives less than that, as I do, the amount is not made up--although gas prices could go above $3.00. But I have to consider that over those five years, I would be driving a car in the Accent SE that has a lot more of what I look for in a car. It would be worth it to me to pay more than for the Yaris. I realize many will disagree with me on that. For example, if having seven cup holders is a "blocker" requirement for you, then that drops the Accent hatch out of any consideration whatsoever.
#23 of 443 Re: Pros and cons [backy]
Oct 01, 2006 (3:55 pm)
Actually, believe it or not, I pretty much agree 100%.
#24 of 443 Re: 2007 Hyundai Hatch and 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift [vermonter16]
Oct 03, 2006 (11:30 am)
I couldn't resist commenting... I test drove an automatic yaris liftback in August in NH and fell in love immediately. I'm waiting for a stick shift with power package and praying I get it. I know it was years ago but a friend bought a Hyundai and it was a piece of crap.. I just couldn't consider one, I'll stick with Toyota's or Honda's.. both have been great buys in the past and sooooo reliable!
#25 of 443 Re: 2007 Hyundai Hatch and 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift [ulthipster]
Oct 03, 2006 (11:35 am)
Exactly why "predicted" reliability is so important... everything from perception to residuals are based on what people remember about old ones, not how nice the new ones "might" be.
Once bitten, twice shy
The Yaris OTOH, is the follow-up to a car that CR gave almost ENTIRELY full red (the best) circles accross the board.
And I swear, if someone brings up the Toyopet... lol... Anyone find me a COLOR photo of one yet? Or know any of the 3 people who owned one and are still alive??? j/k
#26 of 443 Re: 2007 Hyundai Hatch and 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift [tjw1308]
Oct 03, 2006 (2:48 pm)
The first Toyota I owned, a Corolla, had three powertrain problems (two of which I had to pay for) and one electrical system problem (also which I had to pay for) in its first 3 years. Plus the trunk leaked during hard rains, or going through an automatic car wash. Guess I would never want to buy another Toyota! Oh wait... I did buy two others. They were very reliable. Also much more refined than my first Corolla. They were very good cars (another Corolla, and a Celica). I'm glad I gave Toyota a second chance.
#27 of 443 Re: Pros and cons [backy]
Oct 03, 2006 (3:47 pm)
The big thing missed for ME is the "true cost od ownership". Check the price of a 60K service on both...
#28 of 443 Re: Pros and cons [lucynethel]
Oct 03, 2006 (3:59 pm)
Well, don't keep us in suspense--what are the 60k service costs for both cars?
#29 of 443 Re: 2007 Hyundai Hatch and 2007 Toyota Yaris Lift [backy]
Oct 03, 2006 (5:47 pm)
"Guess I would never want to buy another Toyota!"
And if your problems were in fact in line with the majority of owners, I wouldn't blame you one bit if you didn't.
But we aren't talking about isolated cases here... we are talking about broad spectrums of ownership. Of which, overwhelmingly, have indicated Toyota to be a superior brand with regards to reliability.
If things are indeed changing, there isn't enough data to draw any real conclusions to that effect... YET. There may be, in a while, but for now I doubt anyone but a Hyundai owner would care to take up the argument that a Hyundai is as reliable as a Toyota.
Historically it isn't true, perception-wise it isn't true, and until data conclusively proves so IN THE FUTURE, there isn't much to say for the present either.
By all accounts, the Yaris is PREDICTED to be a more reliable car. I think history more than supports that opinion...