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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Plug-in Hybrids 
330 messages, Last post on Nov 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM
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Toyota ignored it as long as they could, because of the obvious economic issue - how to put even MORE cost into a Prius is not their idea of good business !! Plus, battery technology has to come a ways yet. There are some good possibilities in the nanotech area, but right now, those batteries are still VERY large and add a lot of weight to the vehicle. Baby Steps. Show Toyota it can be done - CalCar did that. Put the pressure on Toyota to get involved - LOTSA people did that and are still doing it. When the technology and the bottom line issues are settled, we'll see it. 2011? 2012? Who knows. But eventually it will hit the streets. |
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There seems to be a consensus that modifying a vehicle to allow for being plugged in is not in an automakers best interest due to it's additional cost. Seems to me that a reasonable solution would be to continue improving and selling the existing Hybrid architecture/design but allow consumers to select a Plug-in as an additional cost option. Getting the option from the manufacturer would also alleviate any concerns regarding loss of warranty. There is also concern that the plug-in batteries would take additional space and weight. It also seems to me that there is a lot of space available in the spare tire well. If a vehicle was changed to use run-flat tires, weight would be saved and additional space would be made available Since the latest technology of Lithium Ion batteries allows for much greater power density, lower weight, and smaller size, perhaps it won't be too much of a weight space trade off to support a 50 mile EV only commute.
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Replying to: michael2003 (Jul 28, 2006 2:32 am) Well it was never in the automaker's financial best interest to make hybrids to begin with. Modifying a hybrid to give it plug-in capability is trivial compared to the modifications required to incorporate hybrid technology into a conventional vehicle. The new Tesla Roadster can go 250 miles on a 900 lb battery pack. The battery pack on a Toyota Prius weighs just over 100 lbs. I believe that it is possible to deliver 30 miles of all electric driving range without increasing the weight of a Prius by more than 200 lbs. What would the additional cost be? I'd guess around $3000. People are currently paying around a $3000 premium for a Prius, which essentially gets them 10 mpg over a Corolla. Why wouldn't some pay an additional $3000 for a 40 mpg increase? That's not taking into consideration what the government might offer in terms of incentives.
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Replying to: tpe (Jul 28, 2006 1:40 pm) My guess for 200 lbs of Li-Ion batteries would be at least $10,000. Has CalCars gotten their PHEV upgrade below $12k?
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 28, 2006 1:53 pm) The additional cost is almost entirely due to the batteries. The raw materials for these batteries are not expensive, its the manufacturing process. That's where the greatest gains can be made in lowering prices.
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Replying to: tpe (Jul 28, 2006 3:26 pm)
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gary says - " think electric vehicles or plugin hybrids are for now a rich mans play thing. I would love to have an electric runabout to go to the store and back. Nothing road legal is available for me here in CA." The Zap Xebra is coming soon to Cali. Check google news and see the story. Supposed to sell for about $9K. Git ya one Gary !!! 
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Replying to: larsb (Jul 29, 2006 6:29 am) Cool. I could go for the Xebra PK. I signed up for the news letter and a test drive. I like it. That would be perfect for 90% of my daily trips to the store etc. http://www.zapworld.com/cars/xebrapk.asp |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 28, 2006 10:06 pm)
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Replying to: tpe (Jul 29, 2006 2:27 pm) My problem with lithium ion batteries is reliability. I just went to use a laptop that I rarely use. It is a Dell that I had bought a new battery for in January. The original battery lasted about a year. The new battery is completely dead and will not take a charge. I called Dell and they were kind enough to extend the normal 90 day warranty. I am now on my third battery for that laptop. I have a 6 year old Dell laptop that is still going with the original NiMH battery. The company building the Tesla will not survive if they have to replace cells on a regular basis. Lithium batteries are an old technology yet still have serious problems. First used in 1912. A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This drawback is not widely publicized. At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion laptop battery that's full most of the time at 25 degrees Celsius, will irreversibly lose approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the time it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused. Different storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C, 20% at 25 °C, and 35% at 40 °C. When stored at 40% charge level, these figures are reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively. If the battery is used and fully depleted to 0%, this is called a "deep discharge" cycle, and this decreases its capacity. Approximately 100 deep discharge cycles leave the battery with about 75% to 85% capacity. When used in laptop computers or cellular phones, this rate of deterioration means that after three to five years the battery will have capacities that are too low to be usable. Li-ion batteries are not as durable as nickel metal hydride or nickel-cadmium designs and can be extremely dangerous if mistreated. They are usually more expensive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery |
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