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330 messages, Last post on Nov 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2008 8:17 pm)
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 16, 2008 12:15 pm) probably raise the value of your used car by $5k at least, maybe more...(another guess). a new replacement prius would cost you well over twice the 10k. pretty close to making sense even on a pure economic basis. No wonder Toyota doesn't like it one bit. |
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 19, 2008 6:22 am) Can you supply a URL? I know that for laptop batteries, they are only good for about 500 cycles, and they work best when they are almost, but not completely, discharged before recharging. At least that is my experience with Li-Ion batteries.
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jun 19, 2008 5:25 pm) I'll track down a reference. I know that the A123 Systems batteries being considered by GM have been tested through thousands of charge/discharge cycles. This 500 cycle limit might be true for laptop batteries. What people need to realize is that the chemistries being used in Li-ion battery packs designed for vehicle applications is fundamentally different from what's now being used in laptop batteries. Even though I suspect today's laptop batteries last longer than they did a couple years ago. |
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I know Gary is going to say, "see SEE SEE but I'm posting it anyway, for informational purposes ONLY. Battery not at fault Even though neither of these fires apparently were caused by lithium-ion batteries, the news is likely to raise some concern about plug-in hybrids from consumers and automakers, said Mike Omotoso, senior manager of global powertrain research at JD Power and Associates. “This shows [companies] need more time for testing the viability of these vehicles before they can be commercialized,” he said. “This is a good example of why some manufacturers, like Honda, have been holding off on making plug-in hybrids. It’s clear it’s not just as simple as connecting a cable to your battery and plugging it into your wall. If that were the case, it would have been done by the major manufacturers already.” He emphasized that these fires don’t necessarily mean that plug-in hybrids are unsafe, but said they could raise the perception of a safety issue, which could impact their commercialization. “There’s a difference between someone doing an after-market conversion in a garage, versus a manufacturer making a plug-in hybrid from the get-go,” he said. “If there are more of these examples, even if it’s just some guy in a garage, people will think, ‘Maybe plug-in hybrids aren’t the way to go because they are too unsafe.’ ” In a newsletter released Wednesday night, CalCars.org indicated similar concerns. “For several years, some opinion leaders from automakers, utilities and national labs have expressed their fears that ‘one bad accident’ could set back the progress of [plug-in hybrids],” CalCars.org founder Felix Kramer wrote. “We have agreed that safety must be top priority. … We hope that this and other incidents will lead to far greater emphasis on safety as well as full and rapid disclosure of incidents.” He added that the nonprofit is aware that conversions by small companies and individuals never could be as well-designed as those by large carmakers, which is why it has encouraged automakers to bring plug-in hybrids to the market more quickly. “The fact that carmakers can build better and safer PHEVs is self-evident, but the demand is so great that individuals and companies continue to bang down the doors of the suppliers of conversions,” he said. “We’re all impatient for the great transition to electrification of transportation to begin. The longer we have to wait, the larger will be the trend toward third-party conversions, for better or for worse.” Still, he argued, it’s important to keep the danger in perspective. After all, the cars we already drive every day use a highly explosive fuel that could be set off by a stray spark or catch fire in accidents, he wrote.
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 25, 2008 2:03 pm) Just what is the problem? I did not see any explanation only spin about gas being dangerous. Well I agree and would prefer diesel as it is MUCH safer than gas or hybrids. Boulder, Colo.-based Hybrids Plus has advised all of its conversion owners to stop driving the vehicles until further information is available. According to the press release, forensic examinations have not been able to conclusively identify the cause of the fire, but established that the battery cells – which, according to plug-in advocacy group CalCars.org came from A123Systems – were not the reason. The company said it has begun inspecting and upgrading all of its systems to eliminate potential concerns, and would upgrade all its customers’ systems for free. It isn’t the first instance of fires in conversions. CalCars last month reported a failure that resulted in a meltdown of the original nickel-metal-hydride battery in the world’s first Prius plug-in hybrid conversion. Ok, let me get this straight. I take my $30k Prius and have it modified to a PHEV for an additional $25k plus and it is not to be driven. My advice don't park it or any other hybrid in your garage unless you are trying to get out of your mortgage. From the article a quite a few of these experiments have gone sour. If they are upgrading free of charge would that not indicate they know what the problem is?
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 25, 2008 2:41 pm) Note: I need to eat some of my words about the added-battery conversion system (that piggybacks the original battery with a new pack) being safer than systems like Hybrids Plus' that replace both the OEM battery and BMS. The particular failure mode I experienced is unique to two-battery systems, though a BMS failure could possibly produce similar results, depending on the PHEV battery's failure characteristics. The best advice with PHEV is have an automatic fire suppression system installed in you garage. If you can afford to waste $60 on a PHEV another $10k to protect your home is just good insurance. I would give the same advice to someone with a CNG car being filled over night by PHILL. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 25, 2008 2:41 pm) I would speculate that they know it's a good business practice to provide any recall as a free service. I'm pretty sure they also know that the problem did not originate in the battery.
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Replying to: michael2003 (Jun 26, 2008 3:00 am) If Chevy uses the same brand of battery used in this fire for their new Volt it will be interesting to see how they plan to prevent fires caused by overcharging.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 26, 2008 4:54 am) Two points: 1. The charger needs to have a sensor that stops charging when the batteries are full. Note this is much easier to implement than a heat sensing system. The $6 aftermarket charger for my cell phone (li-ion) senses the full charge, so it is hard for me to believe that a custom charger for a plug-in car would not also account for a full charge and stop supplying power. To me this means that the batteries overheated while being charged (NOT after being charged), leading to the second point. 2. Customers are going to complain if their batteries are not fully charged when they ran their charger all night, but it cut off due to heat in the batteries. The issue remains the same - do the Li-Ion batteries heat up more than NiMH batteries as they charge, and if so can the problem be fixed?
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