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330 messages, Last post on Nov 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 12, 2008 5:03 am) Did you read point number two? If the cost of the battery has not diminished considerably, you may want a plug-in Prius, but cannot justify $50k that it costs. Just like GM is talking about LEASING the battery in the Volt. Toyota probably will have the same cost issues to deal with. It will be interesting and I am sure Toyota announcing the PHEV is to try and sway the buyers away from the Volt in favor of their own vehicle. It is just marketing vapor ware until you see the car on the dealers lot. Finding a battery company that will warranty a Li-Ion for 10 years will be a challenge also. The technology does not have a good longevity record. Another reason for leasing the batteries.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 12, 2008 6:00 am) And the battery is not going to cost $50K Gary my gosh !! The company that does plug-in Prius conversions charges $10K for their smallest one, and you know they have a good solid profit margin in there. And that's batteries which they buy AT MOST in quantities probably of 10 at a time. Didn't you see all the recent news about 'Yota's new hybrid battery factories? They are going to use economy of scale to reduce those prices to reasonable amounts. They are going to build a huge number of batteries every year. Don't be such a cynic mi amigo - life is too short..........
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 11, 2008 1:02 pm) I thought the EV-1 used lead acid batteries?
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jun 12, 2008 3:42 pm) |
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 12, 2008 6:14 am) You need to do some more research on Lithium Ion batteries. Longevity is their Achilles heel. Not to mention catching on fire. I have not had a Li-Ion battery in a laptop last more than a 1.5 years. The same exact AA cells that are in the Tesla. They expect 6000 plus AA cells to keep on ticking for How long? Supposedly GM has a supplier that has overcome some of the runaway heat problems. Have not heard on longevity or shelf life. I would assume Toyota and Panasonic are addressing those issues. Cheapest actual conversion I find for the individual is $21,600. That will give you a low speed range of 15 miles battery only. You will get 100 MPG up to 30 miles on a full overnight charge. After 30 miles it drops back to normal Prius mileage. No one I can find will convert a Prius to Li-Ion PHEV for $10,000. They claim the batteries are that much or more. All the conversions I could find are limited to ONE YEAR warranty. Lots a money for so LITTLE gain. http://www.hybrids-plus.com/ht/products.html I am a cynic. I have seen too many WA claims with no results. You have talked about a 100 MPG Prius for 3 years. I have yet to see one being sold anywhere. That is a Prius with an EPA rating of 100 MPG combined. I'm waiting patiently. Just as I was waiting for a small diesel PU. They are both NA to the US market.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 12, 2008 7:57 pm) That problem will be SOLVED in the PHEVs and EVs which use the technology !! GM and 'Yota will not put out a product that is likely to self-combust and KILL people or burn houses down !!! And you are still talking about prices. Did you not read my last post? 'Yota is going to have a battery FACTORY making ALL of them they need - the price will be driven WAY WAY down from the onesey-twosey prices that converters charge now !!! I personally have not talked about a 100 MPG Prius for three years. I know the existing Prius can do that. - not EPA, but on the road it has been shown multiple times to do that. What are those same techniques going to get on a PHEV Prius with an EPA rating of 70+ MPG? Probably over 200 MPG. That brings up a thought - is the EPA going to have to modify their test AGAIN to account for the extra mileage a PHEV will get like the Volt? I mean, they can't just run a "city" test on a short run, because the car will stay in electric mode the whole time. What will that show on the test? A Million Miles Per Gallon? Something creative will have to be done to that part of the test to account for the all-electric portion, right? |
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| Its probably importnt to also note that a lot of different battery companies are bringing a lot of different battery chemistries to market, they are not the same Lithium Ion that is in your laptop. | |
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Tax dollars at work for a good cause !!! One has to wonder if this news is too little too late already but, Ford, General Motors and General Electric will split $30 million to develop and demonstrate Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles research projects over the next three years. The Department of Energy said today the projects will hasten the development of vehicles capable of traveling up to 40 miles without recharging, which includes most daily roundtrip commutes and satisfies 70% of the average daily travel in the US. The projects will also address critical barriers to achieving DOE’s goal of making such cars cost-competitive by 2014 and ready for commercialization by 2016. Of course by then gas could cost so much people will be happy to push their cars. The DOE did say this week that the average price for regular gasoline in the United States should peak at $4.15 per gallon in August and to average $3.78 per gallon for the year. Diesel fuel prices are projected to remain near the June 2 price of $4.71 per gallon over the next few months, with an average price of $4.32 per gallon for the year. The DOE says PHEVs are hybrid vehicles that can be driven in electric-only or hybrid modes and recharged from a standard electric outlet. They offer increased energy efficiency and decreased petroleum consumption by using electricity as the primary fuel for urban driving. This is the first round of selections under DOE’s PHEV Technology Acceleration and Deployment Activity plan. A second round of applications is due July 18, 2008. |
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link title Ford continues testing and development of its Escape plug-in hybrids -- this month the automaker will let more of its 20 PHEV fleet loose on the grounds of Southern California Edison. The first Ford Escape PHEV was delivered to SCE last December. The Escape PHEVs, which use lithium-ion batteries from Johnson Controls-Saft, will be tested first at Southern California Edison and eventually be transferred to other utilities in the New York/New Jersey area to determine the regional differences in vehicle performance, efficiency, and usage. Specifically, the 20 Escapes will be analyzed on four levels: battery technology, vehicle systems, customer usage, and grid infrastructure. Before similar Ford PHEVs make their way to the market, Ford, along with Johnson Controls, SCE, and Electric Power Research Institute, is researching other possible uses for advanced batteries. This 20-vehicle fleet represents another baby step toward the development of a PHEV that's sellable to consumers and profitable for Ford. |
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Replying to: larsb (Jun 11, 2008 7:41 am)
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