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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Plug-in Hybrids 
330 messages, Last post on Nov 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 13, 2008 5:47 pm) Toyota announced at the NAIAS their plans to offer a plug-in Prius by 2010. It seems the people at Toyota aren't talking to each other. It is also interesting that just 2 years ago Toyota was adamently opposed to PHEVs. Toyota's particular hybrid system really isn't well suited for a PHEV application. You can program it to run in electric only mode but the electric motor isn't adequately sized to be the sole source of propulsion. I think we'll see 0-60 times of around 20+ seconds and a vehicle that is totally incapable of climbing any kind of grade without the ICE kicking in. That statement by the Altair researcher is baffling. They've already delivered quite a few battery packs to Phoenix Motorcars. Is he saying that these battery packs are unsafe? Regardless, I don't think that a fuel tank is 100% safe either. For that matter driving in general isn't 100% safe. It's a matter of acceptable risk. Plug-in Prius
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Replying to: tpe (Jan 14, 2008 10:21 am) It sounds like the researcher is concerned about his invention. He wants to sleep at night knowing his battery does not incinerate someone. I know you are very familiar with batteries. I worked on big batteries in Telephone offices. They are nothing to take lightly. I saw a 12 inch crescent wrench vaporize across the office from me when an inexperienced installer went across the + & - terminals. He was lucky to get only minor burns. I think that we are a ways yet from the best battery design. Sounds like Toyota and GM are of the same mindset. Companies like Phoenix or Tesla just want to sell something. They can fold if anything bad happens. Toyota and GM do not have that luxury.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 14, 2008 7:29 pm) I think that battery technology, like most technologies, will keep evolving so that we will never really have the optimum or best battery. All we need to get started is an acceptable battery. The amount of money being poured into battery development by people far more knowledgeable than myself is a reason to be encouraged. I believe that enough safeguards can be built into these battery packs that the risk of fire is no greater than with a gas tank. People seem to feel comfortable sitting on 15 gallons of gasoline. If I were to guess I'd say GM's biggest concerns are cost and longevity. They are currently subjecting battery packs to rigorous testing, trying to simulate 10 years of use in 2 years. Toyota probably did delay Li-ion in the Prius out of safety concerns. But as has been mentioned several times Toyota was trying to use the same chemistry that is used in laptops. My understanding is that they are now pursuing a Li-ion chemistry similar to what GM plans to use, which has a much lower risk of thermal runaway. 2010 is not that far away. For GM and Toyota to be using this as a target date is an indication to me that they have a fairly high level of confidence that the required battery technology is close at hand. Of course neither GM or Toyota is guaranteeing this date but from a PR perspective I'm sure they'd very much like to meet it. In fact I get the sense that it has become somewhat of a competition between the two companies, which is good for people anxious to see this type of vehicle on the market. It will be interesting to see if Honda and Nissan jump on board and announce plans for their own PHEVs. Both companies recently dismissed these types of vehicles as impractical and with very narrow appeal to consumers. I hear these comments from Honda and am surprised they ever produced the Insight or the NSX. |
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GM is now stating that the Saturn Vue will probably be the first PHEV to hit the market in 2010. The battery pack will be considerably smaller than the Volt's, only providing 10 miles of all electric driving at low speeds. It will also incorporate GM's two-mode hybrid drive system. GM's claim is that this vehicle will double the fuel efficiency of any current SUV. Unlike the Volt it will not be driven solely by electric motors but by a combination of electric and ICE depending on the driving conditions. Personally I see this configuration as being inferior to the Volt's but it probably represents fewer engineering hurdles and will allow GM to have bragging rights as being first to the market with a PHEV. saturn vue
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Replying to: tpe (Jan 15, 2008 10:27 am)
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According to the GM-Volt website, it appears that the validation testing of the current batteries provided by LG Chem are on a roll. So far they've satisfied the testing criteria and the lead engineer has indicated that he firmly believes that they have a winner. Testing of the A123 battery is shortly to begin. I guess we'll see if their provided battery is as promising! I sure hope so. Competition rocks. 
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 15, 2008 8:51 pm) Define FAR. Anway, GM's press releases indicate they plan on using a Li-ion battery pack in the Saturn Vue PHEV. |
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Seems that there must be something magical about 2010. Maybe it's because a movie was made with that title?  Alternate Route commented on The Target |
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Replying to: michael2003 (Jan 16, 2008 2:48 am) I agree. These companies are competing for a very lucrative prize, so they're highly motivated. And it's not like improvements will halt once GM decides on a battery for the Volt. I believe battery development will be a very dynamic field for quite some time. Here's an interesting article on new Li-ion battery technology. Sounds like it's still off in the distant future but if it ever makes it's way to EVs a 200 lb battery pack could provide a range of around 400 miles. nano Li-ion
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Replying to: gagrice (Jan 14, 2008 7:29 pm) Toyota would not put 1 million PLUS hybrids on the road with dangerous, self-combusting batteries. That would be corporate suicide. And with 40+ Billion dollars in the bank, Toyota is not likely to commit Hari-Kari any time soon............... |
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