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#21 of 330 Re: EV-1 [tpe] by gagrice May 25, 2006 (5:48 am)
Replying to: tpe (May 25, 2006 3:55 am) That is a good article with the pertinent info. I would think that CARB regulations would require Toyota to warranty the battery for 10 years or 150K miles like the hybrids. That was the rules to get the PZEV certification. I got a feeling that was the reason the GM scrapped their EV-1 project. It looks like about 1200 were sold in CA. I would think there would be some for sale. Of course that $26,000 battery replacement could be a roadblock to resale value. I am thinking the same fate could be in store for the older generations of hybrids. You cannot just keep batteries sitting on the shelf for years then use them. They do go bad in time.   You should like this link:   http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/ Replies to this message: gagrice (May 25, 2006 6:05 am) tpe (May 25, 2006 7:06 am) gagrice (May 25, 2006 9:16 am)
#22 of 330 Re: EV-1 [jim314] by tpe May 25, 2006 (6:01 am)
Replying to: jim314 (May 25, 2006 4:57 am) But if the power company is burning fossil fuel to produce the electricity, this process has 30% to 40% efficiency, so say 35%. So your figure of 105 mpg equ is reduced to (105)(0.35) = 37 mpg equ.    Then there are transmission losses for electric power, and transportation losses for supplying gasoline and diesel to the distribution points and the retail outlets. In some areas of the country ice storms cause power outages, during which EVs would be inoperable.   Your logic is based on worst case assumptions and a few omissions.   You are talking about a coal burning power plant, which is the worst case scenario and even then it is a domestic source. A good percentage of the grid's energy comes from nuclear and hydroelectric with a growing amount coming from wind and solar. You also don't take into account the energy spent on getting that gasoline to your fuel tank. This includes extraction, shipping, refining, delivery and probably a few more. Bottom line is that there is no close comparison between electric and ICE propulsion when it comes to energy efficiency.   On top of that there is far greater potential for improvement when it comes to EVs. Solar cells can be incorporated into the vehicle to extend its range and allow for charging while parked. A homeowner could potentially generate his own energy through solar and or wind to charge his car.   Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of PHEVs. I just see them as a necessary stepping stone. On the other hand I see our current hybrids as an almost worthless diversion. Replies to this message: midnightcowboy (Sep 01, 2006 9:09 am) reddroverr (Sep 02, 2006 12:19 pm) midnightcowboy (Sep 05, 2006 6:01 am) and 18 more...
#23 of 330 Re: EV-1 [gagrice] by gagrice May 25, 2006 (6:05 am)
Replying to: gagrice (May 25, 2006 5:48 am) More interesting info on who and what killed the electric car. I would think we should go see this movie when it comes out in June.   The electric car “mandate” in California was abandoned in favor of a new zero emission vehicle technology, the hydrogen fuel cell. Proponents, like the California Air Resources Board, argued that it could prove a better technology. Unlike battery electric cars, however, it was far from being a proven technology. And supporters and detractors both agree that a practical H2 car is decades away from reality.   Take note of where the guy that killed the electric car now works.   Beset by industry and political pressure, CARB ultimately let the auto and oil industries off the hook by eliminating electrical vehicle production from the mandate. CARB Chairman (1999-2004) Alan C. Lloyd, Ph.D., in particular may bear the brunt of the guilty verdict: the board operates on a consensus mode, in which the chairman directs policy and other board members follow his lead. Four months before the CARB meeting that effectively killed the electric car, Lloyd became the chairman of the California Fuel Cell Partnership, a consortium of automakers and public agencies that promotes the development of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and infrastructure. In his interview filmed for this documentary, Lloyd states that he remains convinced that the ZEV mandate was not feasible.   By the way, this is the same Alan C. Lloyd that blocked the sale of diesel cars in the CARB states. Now we know his agenda.
#24 of 330 electric miles per gallon by kneisl1 May 25, 2006 (6:31 am)
You guys were saying something that was interesting me there. But you lost me. Say again how much in miles per gallon it costs to run an electric car. Like convert electricty into gallons of gas.
#25 of 330 Re: EV-1 [gagrice] by tpe May 25, 2006 (7:06 am)
Replying to: gagrice (May 25, 2006 5:48 am) Of course that $26,000 battery replacement could be a roadblock to resale value   I read that figure but am somewhat skeptical. My understanding of NiMH batteries is that the materials and manufacturing costs aren't all that great. My guess is that the high cost is much like the high cost of prescription drugs prior to them going generic. Ovonics NiMH patents will expire in 2014. Lithium Ion batteries may be ready for prime time by then and it will become a moot issue. If not I suspect you will see the price of NiMH batteries plummet at that time. Replies to this message: gagrice (May 25, 2006 9:16 am)
#26 of 330 batteries by kneisl1 May 25, 2006 (7:16 am)
My understanding is that no one has come up with a viable replacement for the lead acid battery. Other batteries have been developed but they have drawbacks. (which no one wants to talk about) I might be wrong about that. If that is not so, tell me how it is not so. Replies to this message: tpe (May 25, 2006 7:55 am)
#27 of 330 Re: batteries [kneisl1] by tpe May 25, 2006 (7:55 am)
Replying to: kneisl1 (May 25, 2006 7:16 am) My understanding is that no one has come up with a viable replacement for the lead acid battery.   The only real benefit the lead acid battery offers over NiMH or Li-Ion is its price. Li-Ion seems to have the greatest future potential but has a few well documented engineering challenges that must first be overcome.
#28 of 330 Re: EV-1 [tpe] by gagrice May 25, 2006 (9:16 am)
Replying to: tpe (May 25, 2006 7:06 am) My guess is that the high cost is much like the high cost of prescription drugs prior to them going generic   I think the biggest obstacle is size and engineering. The battery will have to fit into a space that is available. I do know that Panasonic & Toyota got sued and lost trying to circumvent Ovonics patent on NiMH batteries. If the only source when the batteries do go bad is Toyota you will pay dearly. In the case of the RAV4 EV it is such a niche vehicle that you are talking hand built and special order on much of the vehicle. I think that is where that high price comes about. I doubt that Toyota has any spare batteries lying around. If one goes bad and is covered by warranty you will wait until they special order it from Panasonic. If you have to pay I can believe the $26k.   As far as cost of NiMH batteries. I think there are some elements that are quite expensive. When and if they work out the problems with LioN batteries NiMH will just fade into the woodwork. Not many use them in electronics anymore that I know of. Time will tell.
#29 of 330 advantages by kneisl1 May 25, 2006 (9:19 am)
Well price could be the most important thing! The standard range for an acid battery car is 30-40 miles at 25-30 mph. What performance do the other battereies give?   When I was ten years old a family friend had a 1918 Detroit Electric he restored. It was an impressive car. It was very tall and had a greenhouse of plate glass about half an inch thick. (a little scary if it broke!) It had seats like sofas. And the wheels were wooden spoked and about three feet in diameter. I remember it could go about 25 miles an hour for 25-30 miles on a charge. It must have weighed two tons! And I rememeber the owner saying (in 1968) that there had been no improvment in battery technology since the car was built.  So what performances do "modern" batteries give compared to that? Replies to this message: tpe (May 25, 2006 10:33 am)
#30 of 330 Re: EV-1 [gagrice] by stevedebi May 25, 2006 (10:06 am)
Replying to: gagrice (May 24, 2006 4:20 pm) " I tried finding one of those a while back and no luck. I would imagine folks that got them are hanging on. T"   Here in SoCal, they went to cities. I'm not sure they were ever sold to private consumers, unlike the EV-1.   I saw an electric RAV4 a couple of weeks ago (city vehicle).

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