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330 messages, Last post on Nov 13, 2008 at 12:13 PM
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Replying to: lightminer (Mar 06, 2007 1:35 pm) I remember in the late seventies when power companies switched from coal to natural gas no-one questioned or made mention in the press that the reason for central electricity generation in the first place i.e that impracticality to pipeline and combust solid fuel in a residential setting had been removed from the power companies also. The playing field was now level. Anyone can burn natural gas if that is to be the 'fuel du jour' At around the same time the recent availability of the microprocessor would tie up the loose ends in providing control of a micro-genset that would meet acceptable standards in frequency stability at low cost. For some reason residential power never happened so I was particularly sensitive to see you write that thermal power staions can only be efficient only in the mega scale, that is simply propaganda by the electric supply companies who of course have no objection to you wasting your time with barely profitable wind and solar applications. As long as you stay away from their cash cow. If you want a real argument, the home version doesn't have to be that efficient since you're competing against the gas furnace which is 0% efficent for power generation and we can find use for more waste heat than electricity most of the time anyways. By the way as it stands now, the power company loses jurisdiction on enforcing the safety electrical code if you go off grid. I learned this fom their own electricians that some tram operators would be out of business if their early 20th century switchgear was ever subject to 21st century scrutiny. In the long run for (North) America to compete globally I feel we must lower the energy costs to run our whole society whichever way we can. T2 |
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Replying to: toyolla2 (Mar 07, 2007 7:19 am) Power lines can just as easilly be buried as gas lines. There are nat gas explosions and whole area evacuations because of leaks as well. My heat pump heats at an efficiency of 2-4 times that of using electricity directly. I don't know how to evaluate different energy sources against each other. Natural gas does emit green house gas. While I am not one proned to panic about this, we should think about alternatives..nuke and various renewables come to mind. Failing that, co2 racapture is probably only practical at a large facility. Electricity can be generated via several modes. Hydro, coal, nuke etc. Do we want to limit ourselves one raw material (gas) that is not renewable, and sufficent supply for the future questionable? Currently we import a small percent of our nat gas usage, do we want to increase that? We probably will anyway, but switching to gas for electricty gen, will highly exacerbate that trend. Trade deficit, national security concenrns. Have you seen the huge swings in nat gas prices lately? Remember a PHEV will be able to run on gas alone. A power outage is not the end of the world..or even the stop of the world. Electric vehicles of any mode will be a slow grower in terms of electric usage. We should modernize the grid in any case, and new power plants can be built, but I suspect the impact to be a lot less than computers have had on power consumption in the forseeable future. Most grids are perfectly capable of handling extra night time usage. In fact there are plans to encourage people to use power at night. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 07, 2007 8:31 am) This is more hypothetical than I can handle, perhaps someone else can pick this up ? Which EV ? and which PHEV ? Do we know for sure that Toyota will bring a PHEV to market ? You are probably aware of my views in that I am not in favor of any battery chemistry other than Pb-acid for automotive use. T2
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Replying to: toyolla2 (Mar 07, 2007 2:16 pm)
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Replying to: toyolla2 (Mar 07, 2007 2:16 pm) Why is that?
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 07, 2007 2:21 pm) gagrice it is hard to gauge whether you're coming from either range extension of an EV or energy immunity regarding transport. But I would suggest that the best alternative of the two proposals that you put forwards a standby (Honda) generator would be the easiest to incorporate onto a pure EV and involve the least surgery if it had to be done, particularly if externally mounted on a trailer. When considering possibilities to the disruption of service, the residential natural gas line seems to be the most robust of all the energy distribution channels now in place and even that could be backed up by a propane cylinder. Otherwise as Dennis Miller has said "a hybrid(PHEV)vehicle is a way to get kicked up the derriere by both Exon and Enron at the same time." T2
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Replying to: tpe (Mar 07, 2007 4:09 pm) Reason ONE - they have a propensity to self discharge when not in use significantly more than lead acid. Reason TWO - they are vulnerable to low temperatures. At 0 deg centigrade (celsius) the Honda Insight battery can manage just 5kw in and out. This from a govt study I saw on posted on Insightcentral. But that temperature is warm for most of winter I think you will agree, we typically see temperatures around -10 degrees during the night and that's the temperature the battery pack will be at be first thing in the morning. At that level what's the betting you will be lucky to see 2Kw of assist ? Hardly noticeable. A battery box containing 800Lbs of Pb-acid has a lot more thermal inertia than the smaller NiMH systems when away from sheltered indoor parking, and of course the box will have R20 insulation and electric heaters if it is built by backyard constructors. Something the genius's at Honda and Toyota have yet to learn. A marine quality 12v Pb-acid battery is also the force behind my 'virtual HV battery' concept that I am considering privately. T2
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Replying to: toyolla2 (Mar 08, 2007 12:49 am) I've heard that Firefly makes a much improved Pb acid battery. I'm not sure how much lead it uses since it is supposed to be significantly lighter.
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Replying to: toyolla2 (Mar 08, 2007 12:05 am) |
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Replying to: tpe (Mar 08, 2007 6:03 am) gagrice and I would concur with you that there is no credible financial basis to actually do this at the current prices put forward. Thanks for the tip on Firefly Pb-acid technology by the way. T2 |
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