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418 messages, Last post on Sep 26, 2008 at 7:53 AM
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Replying to: tpe (Jul 21, 2008 10:08 am)
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Jul 21, 2008 10:59 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 21, 2008 12:42 pm) Yes but there are a lot of flat fees in an electric bill that aren't affected by your kWh usage. So an additional 10 kWh per day probably won't increase your bill by $1.90. I think that it's a given there will eventually be some sort of cost per mile scheme that replaces our current per gallon fuel tax. I also believe it will apply to all vehicles. I don't think there's any way the government would offer tax breaks for buying an EV and then turn around and impose a special tax on them. |
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Replying to: tpe (Jul 21, 2008 1:52 pm)  I was looking at the specs on the iMEV. It has a 16 KWH battery at 330 volts. I used the calculation that would take 48 KWH at 110 volts to charge. At 12 cents per KWH it would be $5.76 for 100 miles. If you use a 50 MPG Prius as the fuel tax standard it would add in CA $1.30 for a $7.06 to go 100 miles. The Prius in CA at 50 MPG cost for fuel is about $8.50 for 100 miles. If gas were to drop back to $3.50 per gallon the Electric vehicle would be a real hard sell. Especially like the iMEV that is going on sale in Japan for $38,000. Will the payback for an EV exist in the next 10 years. If gas was not so cheap when the EVs came out in 1998 they may have had a market for them. Other than the early adopters they were dead on arrival. Will the same fate hit the soon to be released EVs. The Volt being a plug in hybrid may or may not be affected. It will depend on the price of the vehicle and gas at the pump.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 21, 2008 3:06 pm) A 16 kWh battery should only take about 16 kWh of electricity to charge. Maybe a little more for conversion losses but not too significant. So around $1.92 for a full charge. The current and volts are only an indication of how fast it will be able to charge/discharge. I personally don't believe the iMiEV will be able to achieve a 100 mile range in real world driving with a 16 kWh battery pack. I think that 75 miles is more realistic. That would work out to $2.56 per 100 miles. Still very good. The initial price for this vehicle is ridiculously high but that doesn't concern me too much. There will be early adopters with plenty of cash that will still buy. This will sustain development, allowing prices to drop to levels that are more affordable for the mainstream. It wasn't too many years ago that flat panel TVs were only affordable for the affluent. They're now being sold in WalMart and CostCo at prices comparable to a 32" CRT 10 years ago. I don't see why these battery packs can't achieve the same cost reductions resulting from increased manufacturing capacity.
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Replying to: tpe (Jul 22, 2008 5:49 am) The initial costs of the vehicle would be high, but no more than a typical car. No transmission, no engine, no fuel tank, to cooling system, no... well, not much of anything, really, under the hood. Save a few K right there. Add in some super capacitors for short term bursts and maybe a small onboard generator (half a dozen methods) that kicks in if the batteries are close to dying... Possibly those new solar panels being developed at MIT - that get about twice the current efficiency of current ones. The VW 1 gets 200+MPG. With a TDI engine. Add that engine to an electric hybrid(running as only a generator - far more efficient than powering a vehicle) and you could get 300+mpg equivalent. Or just run electric. 100 miles for $2.50? Yeah... kind of makes gasoline look like the archaic technology that it is. |
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Replying to: toyolla2 (Jul 19, 2008 2:50 pm) I believe you are referring to the most fuel efficient SUV on the planet, the FEH? 34 MPG city, 31 MPG highway. A smaller engine would not be better - it would be too small for the weight. For 2009 they actually went to a larger engine, and gained one MPG on the highway over the 2008 with a smaller engine.
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jul 22, 2008 5:20 pm) Good point. There are so many people that are certain the answer to better fuel efficiency is smaller engines. I personally believe that for optimum efficiency an engine's displacement needs to properly match the vehicle's size and intended power output. From what I've seen trying to accomplish too much from a small engine almost always results in a reduction in fuel efficiency.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jul 21, 2008 3:06 pm) However, I suspect that the people who fork over $40K for the Volt when/if GM builds it will have more than just fuel costs in mind. Part of my decision to buy a hybrid was simply to reduce the amount of gasoline I burned, thus reducing the amount of money I sent to countries whose people want to kill me. If the Volt can do what GM claims, then it will have value beyond saving gas money. In fact, GM should market it that way: "Spend more in your country, send less to other countries." Unfortunately, I won't be purchasing a Volt. $40,000 is beyond my car budget, even factoring in my disdain for OPEC. But I'm hopeful that a few years from now I'll trade in my hybrid for either a much more efficient plug-in hybrid, or a fully-electric car. Even if the electricity costs me more than gasoline, that's fine. As long as the purchase price is around $25K, I'll happily buy it. And I'll happily flip the high hard one to OPEC. |
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Replying to: stevedebi (Jul 22, 2008 5:20 pm)  Steve " they actually went to a larger engine, and gained one MPG" It's more than likely this new engine was of a more advanced design as well. Do we know the full story ? I am certainly not buying into this particular mantra. However I won't be dismissing it as just one anecdotal occurence but will offer up that examples of gas sippers are revealed in the adoption of a 1.3L in the Hybrid Civic and 1.0L in the insight. Possibly the 1.5L in the Prius is the smallest engine ever fitted to that size of vehicle in North America. I think there is a need to change our attitude, in what actually constitutes performance, from power towards fuel economy. T2
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