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#371 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [stevedebi]
Jul 14, 2008 (12:25 pm)
My own opinion is that all four hybrid makers have an understanding NOT to intrude on each other's turf. Right now none of them do.
A hybrid RAV would intrude on Ford's turf. Therefore no hybrid RAV from Toyota. Why you say? I'm hypothesizing that back at the beginning of the decade when Toyota, Honda and Ford first came out with their hybrids they recognized that it would be more efficient for all of them to develop 'their' segment of the hybrid market free of compeition. It's a huge market why butt heads?
Now that GM has joined the other three it too has its 'own' segment. None of the four compete directly. Now this may be scheduled to 'sunset' after some period of time such as in 2011. Note that Toyota and Honda and GM and Ford ALL have new hybrids 'waiting' in the wings.
I don't believe in coincidences where big business is concerned.
#372 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [kdhspyder]
Jul 14, 2008 (1:16 pm)
"My own opinion is that all four hybrid makers have an understanding NOT to intrude on each other's turf. Right now none of them do. "
Hmm...the collusion theory - I was thinking that it was because Ford paid Toyota for the hybrid technology in the Escape hybrid (right?) and they had an actual agreement not to overlap. I don't see this more global collusion working - what about the Prius and Civic? Lots of overlap there, it would seem.
#373 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [texases]
Jul 14, 2008 (1:32 pm)
There appears to be overlap between the Prius and Civic but in fact there is none.
The Civic is a 4 door sedan that sells for about $23000
The new Honda hybrid is supposedly smaller and less expensive.
The Prius is a 5 door hatch that sells for $24300 - $28300
Toyota doesn't sell a small hybrid.
When the TCH came out and showed it was more cost effective than the HAH, Honda yanked it's version immediately.
Jul 16, 2008 (11:47 am)
Anyone ever think about the effects on the Environment of building Hybrids? A Prius has 50kgs or double the amount of copper of a typical car.
This is what a copper mine looks like:
This what the truck that hauls the copper out of the mine looks like so that you have an idea of the scale:
The point I'm trying to make is that everything has an effect. Its not just a change of technology that is needed but also a change of consumer habits.
#375 of 418 Re: Batterys? [mschmal]
Jul 16, 2008 (1:14 pm)
You're correct. But the reason I and many other people bought hybrids is not so much to save the environment, or even save money. We're just minimizing the amount of money we give to nations who want to kill us. And we're going to keep buying cars that further reduce that transfer of wealth.
Eventually, we're going to reduce our national oil consumption to a level that we can sustain with domestic oil production. Then the muslim terrorists can label China and India the new great satans, and attack them instead of us. Those wackos don't really care who they're killing, as long as they're killing someone.
If we have to dig giant holes in Utah to do that, it's fine. If it requires trucks whose individual tires cost more than a luxury SUV, it's fine. I'll sacrifice a bit of the environment to preserve my own life.
#376 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [texases]
Jul 16, 2008 (3:19 pm)
"Hmm...the collusion theory - I was thinking that it was because Ford paid Toyota for the hybrid technology in the Escape hybrid (right?) and they had an actual agreement not to overlap."
Wrong. Nobody paid any $$. Ford and Toyota exchanged patents because they independently developed similar technology.
Actually, Ford has around 200 unique hybrid patents. I think Toyota has made some arrangement for the one concerning using ABS with a hybrid.
#377 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [kdhspyder]
Jul 16, 2008 (3:21 pm)
"When the TCH came out and showed it was more cost effective than the HAH, Honda yanked it's version immediately. "
Not sure what point your are attempting to make. Honda pulled the HAH because it was stupid - a 6 cylinder engine in an Accord hybrid??? It didn't get sufficient MPG and therefore it got panned by the public and canned by Honda.
#378 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [kdhspyder]
Jul 16, 2008 (3:24 pm)
"A hybrid RAV would intrude on Ford's turf. Therefore no hybrid RAV from Toyota. Why you say? I'm hypothesizing that back at the beginning of the decade when Toyota, Honda and Ford first came out with their hybrids they recognized that it would be more efficient for all of them to develop 'their' segment of the hybrid market free of compeition. It's a huge market why butt heads? "
I'm pretty sure such an agreement would be illegal under US antitrust laws, or racketeering laws...
"Why butt heads?"
It is called competition - the auto company that sells the most vehicles makes the most money. An agreement to NOT sell as many vehicles as possible would be just stupid as a corporate policy, and would not even occur to anyone. If they don't sell more hybrids, there are internal reasons; economic, supply, technological, etc. The more hybrids they sell, the more money they make.
I think the biggest reason there aren't more Toyota hybrids is probably the lack of available battery packs. Toyota is focusing on their big seller, the Prius, and allocating the batteries to that model.
The reason for the lack of Honda hybrids (besides lack of available battery packs) is that the IMA does not provide enough boost to significantly help heavier vehicles like the CR-V and Element, much less the Pilot. The IMA is limited by the size of the electric motor that can be mounted over the transmission, if I understand the system correctly.
Another possible reason, though Toyota (at least) denies it. There is a distinct possibility that the auto manufacturers are still losing money on the Hybrids they sell, so they limit the number of sales.
Or maybe some combination of all the above..
#379 of 418 Re: Batterys? [1stpik]
Jul 16, 2008 (3:41 pm)
Similarly I did not have any specific 'greenie' intention in buying mine. I'm much more concerned with enriching those that would do us harm, even if it's indirectly so. At the time when I was looking for a more fuel efficient vehicle I eliminated every small vehicle as being too basic and too little. The Prius was a nice compromise, the TCH was also a valid option for my use it just was too much car for a basic commute.
#380 of 418 Re: Camry Hybrid vs. Prius [stevedebi]
Jul 16, 2008 (3:57 pm)
Yes lack of battery and components is a very valid rationale and avoiding direct competition is very smart business. However I strongly discount these coincidences.
I disagree about the illegality though. A company cannot be forced to jump into direct competition with another company. I doubt that there were specific statements such as 'you do this, I'll do that and you over there do this'. The appearance of this whether illegal or not is not good for those involved.
I'll venture that a 'discussion' of the relative merits of one technology vs another would lead 'all the participants to come to the same conclusions'.....
Honda's IMA is best suited to small cars
the Toyota and Ford systems are suited best to midsizers
none of the three are suited to big vehicles...but
GM's 2-Mode is best suited to big vehicles.
Honda and Toyota would have a horrible time trying to 'export' their hybrid systems to the very nationalistic truck/SUV buyer but GM is perfectly placed to do just that; make hybrid converts of those who'd turn their backs on anything from Toyonda.
As to profitability I'm absolutely certain that the Toyota's hybrids are profitable. The sales numbers are just TOO large now. Also a year ago May they voluntarily lowered prices $600 to $2000 on their prime seller. Remember the Prius is just a Matrix with...
a battery pack
two electric motors
some additional wiring
an inverter and converter
a simple planetary gearset.
It sells for $3000 - $4000 more than the Matrix at a minimum.
Honda OTOH I'm sure makes a profitable HCH because the IMA is so simple and elegant and inexpensive. They too are reaching large volumes.