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Chrysler, Mazda, Mercedes-Benz, Mercury, Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Monte Carlo, Chevrolet Avalanche, Alternative Fuels, Hybrid Cars, Coupe, Hatchback, Truck, Sedan, SUV
#846 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [socala4]
Jun 14, 2006 (6:42 pm)
Since companies pursue profits, we should ask ourselves why Toyota isn't making the Corolla Electric or whatever. The answer -- there isn't enough of a market to make it worth their while, and they have better places to invest their resources.
Then how do you explain the Prius. They brought them over in 2000 at a cost of $35,000 per car. They had a tough sell at $20,000 a pop. It was not until 4 years later when they came out with the Prius II that the market opened up. Then only after they gave a few away to noted personalities. And they are still a niche market. If they had put as much effort into the RAV4 EV which there was a waiting list to buy, they may have had a money making electric vehicle by now.
From the Toyota website.
Toyota Motor Corporation discontinued production of the RAV4 Electric Vehicle worldwide in the spring of 2003. Therefore, Toyota will no longer take orders for the RAV4 EV.
Please be assured, Toyota will continue to ensure that dealers capable of servicing RAV4 EVs are located in each major metropolitan area in California throughout the 5-year powertrain warranty period of your vehicle.
Notice they never offered them outside CA. They were not offered to the public until 2003. That was four years after the sold them to government agencies.
Yes, you can drive an earth-friendly, electric car to work if you live in the mountains, and you donít even need to be an electrician to do it. With a range of over 100 miles per charge, this car has no problem tackling my forty-mile round-trip Highway 17 commute, even with lunchtime errands or after work trips. The majority of our driving needs revolve around getting to work and back every day. Most commutes are less than forty miles round-trip, so the RAV4 EV (Electric Vehicle) can fit seamlessly into your daily life.
The clean, quiet power of this car is a joy. Practical, compact SUV styling makes it a functional choice for the environmentally conscious driver.
After about four years of use in the rental and government vehicle fleets, the electric Toyota RAV4 is available for sale to the public.
They would sell if they were offered.
#847 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [socala4]
Jun 14, 2006 (6:49 pm)
The automakers don't sell them in the US because US consumers don't want them
That is so much baseless crap. Jeep planned to sell 5k Liberty CRDs. They are at 11k and having to discontinue because of new regulations. Mercedes sold 5k more E320 CDI vehicles than they had hoped to sell. VW is selling out every Jetta TDI they get in. To the tune of 20% of the Jettas sold. Notice that Jetta is up 30% this year over last. No small percentage was diesel. That all without selling in the largest market CA. It is regulations not consumers that are keeping diesels from selling. You should drive a Jetta TDI then you would know why they are selling so fast. Modern diesel cars are superior to gas cars in every aspect. I hate to admit it but the Europeans are much smarter than US when it comes to vehicle purchases.
#848 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [gagrice]
Jun 14, 2006 (6:50 pm)
Then how do you explain the Prius.
Toyota believes that it can build a market for hybrids, that will give them a competitive advantage in a highly competitive market. That is why it is pursuing stages of adoption, beginning with the fringe innovators who value technology above all else, before transitioning to the pragmatists who are willing to pay a premium for a unique benefit, and finally to the mainstream consumer who values a low price.
Toyota was not expecting to make a profit on the Prius, the purpose of this car has been to create an entirely different market. It figures that if it starts the market that it will be Toyota's to keep, at least for enough time that it makes it worth their while.
If Toyota thought that electrics were great brand builders then they would be building them. Clearly, they don't. TMC is an extremely well-managed and successful company, so it would be wise to look at they are doing, and figure out why they are doing it. I can assure you that their failure to largely avoid the electric market is no accident, they are avoiding it for a reason.
#849 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [gagrice]
Jun 14, 2006 (6:54 pm)
Again, diesel sales comprise less than 3% of the total car market.
You are trying to claim a mandate for a candidate who was clearly defeated in a landslide election. The consumers cast their vote with their money, and the diesel didn't get a lot of votes.
Focusing on the 3% while ignoring the 97% is just wishful thinking by someone who views this as a religion, not just a technology. Even if diesel demand tripled to reach a level of less than 9%, you think that the other 91% doesn't mean anything?
#850 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [gagrice]
Jun 14, 2006 (7:31 pm)
I'm not reading this thread at all...but I saw some misinformation.
E85 in MN is cheaper than unleaded.
E85 last weekend in Mpls. suburbs was 2.35, unleaded was 2.89. That's not from a website, that's from my eyeballs.
#851 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [socala4]
Jun 14, 2006 (8:23 pm)
Did you even bother to read my post? Have you actually read anything about the USLD phase-in later this year and the resulting change in EPA regulations? You do realize that no manufacturer was going to invest to not be able to sell in the CARB states? The only big unknown I see is how hard and expensive the NOx emissions equipment will be to produce. Honda has already stated that they can accomplish this...so I'd be pretty confident.
I wouldn't be surprised to see diesel penetration reach European levels over a decade or so. Half the cars sold there are diesels, and the petrol half are almost entirely 2.0L and smaller engines, mostly mated to manual transmissions. Americans, in general, don't like those cars much.
I am hardly religious about diesel tetechnology... My wife and I drove a Jetta TDI on a lark and it is an amazing vehicle.
#852 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [heel2toe]
Jun 14, 2006 (8:41 pm)
I wouldn't be surprised to see diesel penetration reach European levels over a decade or so. Half the cars sold there are diesels, and the petrol half are almost entirely 2.0L and smaller engines, mostly mated to manual transmissions.
Yes, and as I have pointed out, the primary reason for this is because diesel is substantially cheaper than is gasoline, because fuel taxes on gas are set at higher rates to deliberately encourage the use of diesel and public transit. According to the EIA, as of late May 2006, average pump prices were as follows:
Fuel prices ($US per gallon, incl. tax)
Nation: Belgium/ France/ Germany/ Italy/ Netherlands/ U.K./ U.S.
Gas: 6.33 / 6.18 / 6.30 / 6.45 / 7.07 / 6.71 / 3.07
Diesel: 5.02 / 5.29 / 5.27 / 5.77 / 5.30 / 6.88 / 2.88
You can see that with the exception of the UK, where the prices are about the same (and high in both cases), diesel is often $1 per gallon less, with a difference of about $1.80 per gallon in the Netherlands.
If the US had similar tax policies to specifically discourage gas use and to choose alternatives, we could potentially similar results for diesel, biodiesel, E85, etc. But for now, diesel is roughly the same price, so there is no incentive to change.
You have to consider the drivers of demand if you are going to create solutions that have a chance of succeeding. If you can't increase the demand for diesel in a meaningful way, then you can't look to diesel as a solution. None of this will matter if people won't use it, and there are no policy changes on the horizon that lead me to believe that demand will increase substantially.
EIA: diesel prices
EIA: gas prices
#853 of 2104 Re: E85 - for free if you buy a Ford product [gagrice]
Jun 14, 2006 (8:41 pm)
> They had a tough sell at $20,000 a pop.
That is absolutely not true!
There were horribly long waiting lists, as long as 6 months for awhile.
It's a good thing the blogs & newspapers document what actually happened, which is quite different from your claim.
#854 of 2104 No E85 for the Prius [john1701a]
Jun 14, 2006 (9:05 pm)
Maybe in the Midwest. There was never a rush to buy the Classic Prius in CA. Not until the Prius II came on the market was there waiting lists in CA the largest hybrid market by far. Not everyone agrees with you on hybrid sales. So when is Toyota going to offer the hybrids as FFVs?
Hybrid sales are cooling off in the US despite high gasoline prices, mostly because the fuel-saving vehicles are still too expensive, analysts say. "Most people who wanted (a hybrid) already have one," said Jesse Toprak, an analyst for Edmunds.com. "They bought one not to save money necessarily, but to make a statement. But that market is not unlimited.
#855 of 2104 Re: No E85 for the Prius [gagrice]
Jun 15, 2006 (4:08 am)
> There was never a rush to buy the Classic Prius in CA.
Your attempt to rewrite history won't work.
My website was founded to help the very situation you claim didn't exist. People were going nuts dealing with the long deliver wait nationwide. In fact, many of us were frustrated by the reality that CA was getting more allocated to them because sales were so hot there.
As for your absolutely hysterical "cooling off" nonsense, get over it. Lumping all types of hybrids into a single category is just plain wrong, and quite misleading. Prius will sell all 100,000 for this year without any trouble.