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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Jun 09, 2006 12:18 pm) I realize that EVs currently have some shortcomings that won't make them suitable for everyone but for the vast majority of us they would be ideal. How expensive would they be? That depends a lot on how many are manufactured. At the present time they probably will be considerably more expensive than a comparable ICE vehicle. Even though I'm not a big fan of government subsidies the reality is that they exist. So the question becomes, how do we get the greatest return on the government's investment in terms of reduced oil consumption. For instance, how much would the government have to spend to get 1 million EVs on the road and how much oil would this save over the life of these vehicles? Now compare this with how much the government would spend to get an equivalent oil savings through ethanol. The other difference is that an EV subsidy could eventually be phased out as they become cost competitive in their own right. I seriously doubt an ethanol subsidy can go away without extremely high oil prices. |
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Replying to: fireball1 (Jun 09, 2006 9:55 am)
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 09, 2006 12:46 pm) Oil fired electric power stations seem to be in great abundance in the USA now. What should we convert them into...huge flower pots???? We have tried EVs, and nobody would buy them, lease them or be seen in one...sigh, except on a golf course, chuckle. Most EVs could not meet the federal safety standards so they were labeled experimental. There are many solutions out there, we just have to find the people who give a damn -- not the couch potatoes of the USA, but real smart people trying to gather and develop real solutions. Ethanol is a handy way to get started at a minimal cost...clean fuel, loe environmental impact, high octane and easy to get started. |
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Replying to: seniorjose (Jun 09, 2006 12:46 pm) You really need to get out of Iowa more. You would be stuck eating corn fritters and hot dogs if you depended on Iowa to feed your family. What difference is there in subsidizing rice in CA or corn in Iowa. How long will the gas stations continue to sell E85 at a loss? That is according to one of your uncredited factoids. |
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 09, 2006 12:46 pm) Well I think the average commute in the US is something like 16 miles one way. Thats 38 miles round trip. Lets say that on average everyone gets 25 MPG commuting, that means they use up about 1.5 gallons a day. So a million EV's in the hands on commuters would save 1.5 million gallons a day. It would take 1.96 million gallons of ethanol to save that 1.5 million gallons of gas. Given the current subsidy that Ethanol gets I would guess that that would come to be about $250 million in subsidies per year. So give everyone who drives electric $250 a year. (thats just based on commuting and not other forms of driving) |
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Replying to: seniorjose (Jun 09, 2006 1:01 pm) Are you following the same conversation I am? |
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Replying to: seniorjose (Jun 09, 2006 1:01 pm) You clearly don't know what you're talking about. At the time that GM and Toyota killed the EV1 and RAV4 EV there were 2+ year waiting lists of people wanting to buy them. These manufacturers are quick to point out that since they only sold a few thousand of these vehicles that indicates there was no demand. Well if Toyota decided to only make 1,000 Camrys next year they could then make the same claim. The fact is that EVs don't fit into the business model of our established auto manufacturers.
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Replying to: seniorjose (Jun 09, 2006 1:01 pm) Another factoid that is not factual. Coal is still over 50% of our power. Unless you consider oil generation at 4% a great abundance. I guess you do that is about all we can expect from Ethanol. In 1998, primary power generation resources converted to electricity were coal, accounting for 52 percent; nuclear, 19 percent; natural gas, 15 percent; oil, 4 percent, and hydro, 9 percent. |
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To me and most E10 users, mileage differences are either non-exstant or irrelevant as E10 is a cheaper fuel than straight gasoline. I don't know about you but Me and others who have checked their mileage find a small but significant drop in mileage using E10. Most cars will see a 4-5% drop in mileage using E85. To me with gas near $3.00 that significant. So you want us to continue to ignore solutions that are real and learn how to whine and cry to the oil cartels dictators on a daily basis. let's see, to force a better supply of oil means that the USA will be in all dictators faces and the military costs will continue to be prohibited...ahhh, a solution, bring back the draft and then we will have enough women and men to be blown apart all over the world...is that what we should want? Electric autoa have been a joke so far, as their motors go slower andd slower and slower as they run out of electrical charge. The hybrids did not save us any oil, even though the engineers meant well in designing and building their Rube Goldberg contraptions. Population shifts can help our environment, and suburbs (bedroom communities) will be the first place to change. Inner cities are and have been reconstructed to lower energy usage. Are our suburbs in the throes of death!
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 09, 2006 1:11 pm) Sorry, but that's not a reasonable point. For one, these electrical were produced in very small quantities, well below one percent of the overall US car market, which indicates that demand for the cars in their then-current form was very low compared to the demand for cars run on gasoline or even diesel. In any case, the market says it all: if there was strong demand for electric vehicles in their present form, and they could be sold at a price that consumers are willing to pay, then manufacturers would be building and selling them now, today -- after all, why wouldn't they enter a viable segment? Clearly, the consumer has little to no interest in electric cars as of now, hence they are not getting built. The hybrid is catching on, because it solves two of the primary problems of electric cars -- limited range, coupled with a slow refueling process that can be difficult to access when required -- but the pure electrics simply aren't cutting it, at least as of today. You can't poo-poo ethanol on one hand as experimental and subsidized, while lauding electric cars that have even less demand and distribution. ALL of these technology "magic bullets" being advocated here face significant stumbling blocks, none of them are ready to go today, and all will need significant investment, subsidies and legal mandates before they become practical and viable. To fixate on one's technology's faults while glossing over those of the others is simply disingenuous and unfair.
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