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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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I agree with all of you that biodiesel is an excellent alternative fuel source. The problem is the personal consumer market if diesel cars in the US is very small. Many consusmers either don't like diesel powered cars, or don't want to pay the purchase price difference for a diesel engine, (not to mention the price difference at the pump). For this same reason, hybrids are still limited production vehicles. American consumers are used to gas powered cars. FFV's have ZERO upfront cost difference. FFV's run on gas or E85. The main reason I am a big proponent of ethanol is the benefits it provides in bringing us closer to energy independence. Cellulosic ethanol is closer than you think, I read an article today, (I'll find the link), http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_3844462 that stated the first cellulosic production plant should begin construction next year in Idaho, I believe it said they will be using barley and wheat stalks. (I did read the article, the author makes many good points. I still believe we should pursue corn based ethanol production, until cellulosic ethanol is widely available.) BTW, I do currently own an FFV, but I do not know of a single E 85 pump in the state. I think America would be much better off if we had choices at the pump : Gasoline, E 85, diesel, biodiesel. Brazil has done this ,(except the biodiesel), and they are not only energy independent, but also, they pay a whole lot less at the pump. A big part of the reason prices are so high right now is that big oil has a collective monopoly. There is no reason for them to lower prices if we don't have another choice. For those of you that forgot Economics 101, the capitalist system only works when there is a competitive market, it does not work when monopolies exist. If alternative fuel sources become widely available, it will benefit us all. (Well almost all, Exxon, Shell, and BP would take a hit, and I would smile all day when that happens).
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Replying to: catam (May 20, 2006 1:34 pm) 
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Replying to: catam (May 20, 2006 1:34 pm) BTW, I do currently own an FFV, but I do not know of a single E 85 pump in the state. I think America would be much better off if we had choices at the pump : Gasoline, E 85, diesel, biodiesel. I've been watching 60/60, dateline and reading about all the different alt/fuels that could be made and how efficent they can be made. For example, there is a ethnaol plant in Canada that is totally run from the byproducts of making ethnaol from cellulos products and not using any fossil fuels what so ever. Hummmmmmmmm I wonder why the USA is actually making some of the new plants using coal? Yea jobs will be created but it's still using fossil fuels and not totally self sufficent of natural materals. Would the gud ole lobbist have anything to do with this, like so any other things. And the guy of dateline stated that parire grass in the USA would be and excellent way to make ethnaol and biodiesl and yes still use corn, wheat, and many others products to make fuels. Yes, the USA is sucking up energy(25% of world world's production) and needs various types of fuels and ways to make them. True the USA has not really embraced diesel's for passenger cars too much, because until recently, they stink, has lack of power and don't forget the sound. However in Europe and the rest of the world, fossil fuels cost 2 to 3 times as the USA, so diesel is very helpful in savings. Yup, competition is gud, too bad clintion let oil companies merge and now we pay for thier benefit. Just like they are making record profits andnot really investing in much just token projects fo show. Short of like the other day in Wash DC. the typical politicals of both parties drove in their Support Usama Vechicles(SUV's) and did a showopp for the camaras and left in thier Support Usama Vechicles for a well to deserved lunch break. Of course I believe if the public can stay focused long enough and direct the bitching directly towards the gov;t to actually makes things happen, it can, even if slowly. |
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Replying to: catam (May 20, 2006 1:34 pm) If the following becomes reality I will change from an opponent of ethanol to a proponent. It is not as easy as using corn or sugar cane. It is far less destructive to our environment than corn or sugar cane. I would still be more inclined to buy diesel vehicles and go for biodiesel. The key to kicking what President Bush calls the nation's oil addiction could very well lie in termite guts, canvas-eating jungle bugs and other microbes genetically engineered to spew enzymes that turn waste into fuel. It may seem hard to believe that microscopic bugs usually viewed as destructive pests can be so productive. But scientists and several companies are working with the creatures to convert wood, corn stalks and other plant waste into sugars that are easily brewed into ethanol — essentially 199-proof moonshine that can be used to power automobiles. Thanks to biotechnology breakthroughs, supporters of alternative energy sources say that after decades of unfulfilled promise and billions in government corn subsidies, energy companies may be able to produce ethanol easily and inexpensively. "The process is like making grain alcohol, or brewing beer, but on a much bigger scale," said Nathanael Greene, an analyst with the environmental nonprofit Natural Resources Defense Council. "The technologies are out there to do this, but we need to convince the public this is real and not just a science project." Using microbes may even solve a growing dilemma over the current ethanol manufacturing process, which relies almost exclusively on corn kernels and yielded only 4 billion gallons of ethanol last year (compared to the 140 billion gallons of gasoline used in the U.S.). There's growing concern throughout the Midwestern corn belt that the 95 U.S. ethanol plants are increasingly poaching corn meant for the dinner table or livestock feed. The idea mentioned by Bush during his State of the Union speech — called "cellulosic ethanol" — skirts that problem because it makes fuel from farm waste such as straw, corn stalks and other inedible agricultural leftovers. Cellulose is the woody stuff found in branches and stems that makes plants hard. Breaking cellulose into sugar to spin straw into ethanol has been studied for at least 50 years. But the technological hurdles and costs have been so daunting that most ethanol producers have relied on heavy government subsidies to squeeze fuel from corn. Researchers are now exploring various ways to exploit microbes, the one-cell creatures that serve as the first link of life's food chain. One company uses the microbe itself to make ethanol. Others are taking the genes that make the waste-to-fuel enzymes and splicing them into common bacteria. What's more, a new breed of "synthetic biologists" are trying to produce the necessary enzymes by creating entirely new life forms through DNA. Bush's endorsement of the waste-to-energy technology has renewed interest in actually supplanting fossil fuels as a dominant energy source — a goal long dismissed as pipe dream. "We have been at this for 25 years and we had hoped to be in commercial production by now," said Jeff Passmore, an executive vice president at Iogen, an ethanol-maker Iogen. "What the president has done is — perhaps — put some wind in the sails."Ottawa-based Iogen is already producing ethanol by exploiting the destructive nature of the fungus Trichoderma reesei, which caused the "jungle rot" of tents and uniforms in the Pacific theater during World War II. Through a genetic modification known as directed evolution, Iogen has souped up fungus microbes so they spew copious amounts of digestive enzymes to break down straw into sugars. From there, a simple fermentation — which brewers have been doing for centuries — turns sugar into alcohol. Iogen opened a small, $40 million factory in 2004 to show it can produce cellulosic ethanol in commercial quantities. In the last two years, it has produced 65,000 gallons of ethanol that is blended with 85 percent gasoline to fuel about three dozen company and Canadian government vehicles. Oil giant Royal Dutch Shell has invested $40 million for a 30 percent ownership stake in Iogen; Petro-Canada and the Canadian government are also investors. Now the company is ready to build a $350 million, commercial-scale factory in Canada or Idaho Falls, Idaho, next year if it can secure financing — long one of the biggest stumbling blocks to bringing the stuff to gas pumps. Bugs to ethanol
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Replying to: gagrice (May 21, 2006 6:47 am) Lets all hope that the industries involved get going on this soon.
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Replying to: catam (May 21, 2006 1:38 pm) ===================================================== Senate Democrats Introduce Broad Energy Package News and Analysis by Jesse Broehl, Editor, RenewableEnergyAccess.com http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story;jsessionid=281D79F1687A522705BC9- 3028DCDC8C1?id=44954
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Replying to: gem069 (May 21, 2006 2:52 pm) There is very little that will actually result in less petroleum use, including the obvious remedy of doing something to encourage conservation. The Democrats are not much better than the Republicans as they want to be the party of "no hard choices". Predictably, the are using ethanol as the new free lunch. Require the auto companies to allow the use of ethanol, and, voila, everything is solved. But wait until consumers begin to actually understand what ethanol does to their gas mileage and hence their per mileage fuel costs. Unless there is a very large differential between gasoline and ethanol, you won't see many consumers switching. The Democrats have discovered a new way to pretend to solve the oil problem without actually doing anything which would cause anyone the slightest bit of inconvenience or responsible action to conserve.
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Replying to: gem069 (May 21, 2006 2:52 pm) I am a pragmatist, this bill certainly seems possible, and I think its a great place to start. It certainly beats the heck out of the energy bill that the Republicans passed and King George signed last year. That thing did nothing except provide $2 billion in tax breaks for big oil. |
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Replying to: catam (May 22, 2006 4:41 pm) Henry Ford and the boys from Detroit did not need the Feds to get them going in this automobile business. Let the people figure out how to keep the cars moving. We run out of oil and can't figure it out the government will not be able to do anything anyway. We expect too much out of a bunch of fat politicians that have done so little over the last 75 years that was worthwhile. |
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I've been following the development of new battery technologies for the past few years and here is a recent press release from Alair Nanotechnologies. They are just one of many companies currently doing R&D on Lithium Ion batteries suitable for electric vehicles. http://www.b2i.us/profiles/investor/ResLibraryView.asp?BzID=546&ResLibraryID=157- 11&Category=856 What will also be interesting is to see if and when these types of batteries get close to viability will the oil companies buy up these companies to control the patents. Chevron bought a 50% stake in ECD/Ovonics about 6 years ago and almost immediately filed suit against anyone attempting to make large format NiMH batteries, the type that would be suitable for plug-in hybrids. Chevron named this company Cobasys and they do enter into licensing agreements with battery manufacturers to use their technologies. These agreements are very restrictive. Either the batteries must not be used for propulsion purposes or they must be limited in size. I don't tend to buy into conspiracy theories but for Chevron to have control over the usage of battery technology seems somewhat sinister in nature. Another interesting article if you have a little time. http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/hurryupandwait.html
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