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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: gagrice (May 18, 2006 6:33 am) The only FFV cars I've seen in recent memory are the Taurus / Sable rentals and a couple personally-owned ones, that's about it. And even then the people were pumping unleaded fuel into them. |
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Replying to: smatt11 (May 19, 2006 1:38 pm) Tell that to the farmers paying 3 bucks a gallon for diesel for their tractors and combines. Or the truck driver that is required to get ethanol to the market place. Or the coal needed to fire the new ethanol plants. I would like to see the study that shows this wonderful net gain in energy. Preferably from a state that is not cashing in on the ethanol boondoggle. Carbon cloud over a green fuel An Iowa corn refinery, open since December, uses 300 tons of coal a day to make ethanol. Late last year in Goldfield, Iowa, a refinery began pumping out a stream of ethanol, which supporters call the clean, renewable fuel of the future. There's just one twist: The plant is burning 300 tons of coal a day to turn corn into ethanol - the first US plant of its kind to use coal instead of cleaner natural gas. The trend, which is expected to continue, has left even some ethanol boosters scratching their heads. Should coal become a standard for 30 to 40 ethanol plants under construction - and 150 others on the drawing boards - it would undermine the environmental reasoning for switching to ethanol in the first place, environmentalists say. http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0323/p01s01-sten.html |
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Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12872060/ The most interesting point to me was that research done recently shows that producing gasoline is actually less energy efficient than producing ethanol. Here's the quote, "the delivery of 1 million British thermal units of ethanol uses 0.74 million BTUs of fossil fuels. (That does not include the solar energy -- the sun shining -- used in growing corn.) By contrast, he finds that the delivery of 1 million BTUs of gasoline requires 1.23 million BTU of fossil fuels. Pretty much debunks the naysayers out there about energy efficiency related to production. Hopefully the cellulose production will take off soon, asthat would provide a huge natural resource for production, in the form of nearly all agricultural byproducts becoming a useful commodity.
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I read in a book once that lawn grass is the largest crop in the US. I also notice that my lawn grows very quickly. I have to mow it 1/week. Imagine if all the grass mowed could be trapped in those bags that people once placed on the end of their mowers. 150 million or so homes, most with lawns, not to mention gulf courses and corporate lawns. I imagine that lawn clippings could supply billions of barrels of cellulose ethanol, and in accordance with switch grass provide much of the fuel America needs. From there conservation, through the use of plug in hybrids,(powered by clean tech such as wind, solar, ect) and smaller, lighter vehicles,(carbon fiber cars weigh half as much as steel) could diminsh demand enough so that bio-diesel, grown from various crops, could supplant any excess demand. Any thoughts on this? |
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In theory the idea of recycling grass clippings from your lawn sounds great. However there would be a huge logistical problem of collecting those clippings and delivering them to an ethanol plant. Maybe in the future somone will invent a Still for home use that works on the cellulose concept. Clearly your idea would be great. Just not practical, YET. |
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Replying to: catam (May 19, 2006 3:40 pm) We know that you have to use oil to make gasoline. I question the figures. But his figures go along with what most have said all along on ethanol. Wang shows a net gain of 26%. Most say 21%. Still not a good trade off. Plus you add the 54 cents a gallon subsidy and it is even less of a good deal. Hopefully the cellulose production will take off soon If you are holding your breath you will die. It is at least 10 years off according to the people pushing it. They have not come up with a practical way to get the sugar out of the switchgrass. It is not as simple as sugar cane or sugar beets. I would think that we would use our sugar beet crop for ethanol. That does not get mentioned. Any ideas why? ethanol by country |
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So you state you question the figures in the article, but then state they are in line with what other experts state. He shows a 23% net loss in energy to produce gasoline, and a 26% gain producing ethanol. You state, "Most say 21%. Still not a good trade off." If a 21% gain is not worth it to you, then what do you think of a 23% loss???? Why does ethanol have to pass a "litmus test" that you don't expect from gasoline?? The simple fact is that it requires the use of energy of some form to convert oil to gas or corn to ethanol.
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Replying to: catam (May 19, 2006 4:38 pm) That doesn't sound right at all. If it takes more fuel to produce gasoline than you get out of it how do you get the first drop of fuel? |
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Replying to: catam (May 19, 2006 4:38 pm) That is the figure I am questioning. It may or may not be correct. If it is true that makes ethanol an even worse deal. It takes fossil fuel to make ethanol. Why does ethanol have to pass a "litmus test" that you don't expect from gasoline?? What litmus test? ADM paid off Congress and we are stuck with that crap. Just watch when they try to take the tariff off of ethanol from the brazilians. Ethanol is not a great fuel. It takes about 130% more to go a given distance in a vehicle using E85. It is far less useful than biodiesel. You go ahead and run that stuff in your car. It is not going into mine at any higher rate than we are forced to use. I cannot wait for the diesel vehicles to get here. At least I can get a decent range out of a diesel vehicle. That will not happen with a vehicle using E85. I am just in the wings waiting for Louisiana and Mississippi to get their act together and sue the heck out of all the corn growers in the midwest for polluting their fisheries. You do not have the majority of the USA on your side with this stuff. |
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Replying to: catam (May 19, 2006 3:40 pm) I’m going with diesel/bio diesel. |
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