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#2093 of 2104 Re: maybe we should revert back to something from an earlier age [stevedebi] by kw5kw Oct 20, 2006 (10:57 am)
Replying to: stevedebi (Oct 19, 2006 6:49 pm) Where you have uncontrolled combustion, i.e.: the forest fires, building fires, &c. one will have polution. I'm not advocating uncontrolled fireboxes as in the past but very specific, very conrolled combustion. Replies to this message: stevedebi (Oct 20, 2006 12:55 pm) rorr (Oct 20, 2006 1:34 pm)
#2094 of 2104 Re: maybe we should revert back to something from an earlier age [kw5kw] by stevedebi Oct 20, 2006 (12:55 pm)
Replying to: kw5kw (Oct 20, 2006 10:57 am) "I'm not advocating uncontrolled fireboxes as in the past but very specific, very conrolled combustion."   What do you propose to do with the by products?
#2095 of 2104 Re: maybe we should revert back to something from an earlier age [kw5kw] by rorr Oct 20, 2006 (1:34 pm)
Replying to: kw5kw (Oct 20, 2006 10:57 am) "I'm not advocating uncontrolled fireboxes as in the past but very specific, very conrolled combustion."   We have that already. It's called the Internal Combustion Engine.   And the efficiency (BTU's in the fuel converted to forward motion) is SUBSTANTIALLY higher than burning a fuel (whether it is gasoline, wood pulp, paper, or recycled cow farts) in a steam boiler (particularly if you are trying to have a boiler in a closed system driving a generator to produce on-board electricity to drive a motor).   There's a big reason that locomotives converted from coal-burning steam power to big diesel electrics. It's called progress.
#2096 of 2104 Re: E85 pumps lose UL safety rating [gagrice] by avalon02wh Oct 21, 2006 (5:34 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 19, 2006 4:48 pm) The timing of this announcement is interesting indeed. A person has to wonder why now. Were the UL folks asleep at the switch? Ethanol has been around for a long time. The properties of the fuel are well known.   "Ethanol-only cars were sold in Brazil in significant numbers between 1980 and 1995; between 1983 and 1988, they accounted for over 90% of the sales." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil   I have worked with another large standardization group called NSF. In general they, like UL, seem to do a decent job. However, I have noticed that as they have gotten larger they become bureaucratic and a bit self serving. Not saying this is the case with UL, but boy, the timing just seems a bit odd.   In the end, I don't think it is going to make a big difference. Replies to this message: gagrice (Oct 21, 2006 5:57 am)
#2097 of 2104 Re: E85 pumps lose UL safety rating [avalon02wh] by gagrice Oct 21, 2006 (5:57 am)
Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 21, 2006 5:34 am) I think the issue is Ethanol and aluminum. It seems that many fuel nozzles are made from aluminum for lightness. If E85 is going to corrode those parts it would seem they need a different nozzle. I have no idea about the internal parts of a gas pump.   It does seem strange that they have had E85 for several years. Maybe UL is just slow on the up take. Or maybe the folks at the various fire depts were not doing their job all this time. Just letting it slide. After all it is big business in the midwest. We still only have ONE commercial E85 pump in all of CA. If it gets shut down, who will notice.
#2098 of 2104 Re: Ethanol good or bad???? [gagrice] by avalon02wh Oct 21, 2006 (6:17 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Oct 13, 2006 7:00 pm) "t is quite simple. They come in convince the local township to give them land, power and water. In exchange they provide jobs. Then when ethanol goes bust they bail out. Leaving the town with an eyesore and inflated land values to contend with. Maybe the mayor and council got rich. I would like to see a study on the 90+ towns that bought into the last ethanol boom."   I would agree that towns, local and state governments often roll out the red carpet for businesses. Call centers and auto plants are good examples. Some work, some go bust.   The big difference this time around is that oil and gasoline prices will remain high enough that ethanol will be able to make it in the long run (E10, not so much of the E85). Demand for the oil from the USA, China, Europe and India will keep prices higher. Supply is still fine but we will pay more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Oil_Prices_1861_2006.jpg   I am guessing that most people saw the recent headlines "Demand for gasoline surges as prices take a dive" http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-10-19-driving-more-usat_x.h- tm and the OPEC decision to try and cut output by 1.2 MBD. This should stop oil prices from dropping. We may even see an increase in gasoline prices back up into the $2.50 range.   On a side note: You mentioned water. In my view, water or lack of, will be the single biggest issue that slows or stops construction of new ethanol plants after the current expansion. Some plants are breaking ground before they have secured water permits - a big problem. In one example I am aware of, a plant assumed the city wells they would inherit had the needed 1,500 gallon per minute capacity. Nope. The wells were only capable of half that rate. The oil sand projects in Canada seem to be running into water issues too. Replies to this message: gagrice (Oct 21, 2006 7:37 am)
#2099 of 2104 Re: Ethanol good or bad???? [avalon02wh] by gagrice Oct 21, 2006 (7:37 am)
Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 21, 2006 6:17 am) You seem to have a practical take on the big picture regarding ethanol. It is not all roses. I agree the ethanol mandate will maintain the need for ethanol. I just would rather they did more research into using sources other than corn before they build all the plants that are only able to accept corn as a feedstock. It looks like we are still several years from using switchgrass or whatever other waste product.
#2100 of 2104 Flex fuel option by gagrice Oct 23, 2006 (4:19 pm)
I was just pricing out a new Ford Crew Cab PU. The price to add flex fuel is $895. They are both 5.4L V8 engines. I guess Ford cannot afford to just give that option to the green buyer. So much for selling many of them. Pay more money to lose money.
#2102 of 2104 Corn Ethanol - Cute but Expensive by gagrice Oct 24, 2006 (5:37 am)
Ethanol shortages have helped push up gas prices and generate huge profits for producers (not farmers). July 12th—National Academy of Science report confirms zFacts' analysis and much more. Bio-diesel has some merit, ethanol is an expensive loser   http://zfacts.com/p/35.html   http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

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