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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 7:14 pm) Good idea, also the cucumbers that aren't needed for pickles. I wonder if biodiesel made from soybeans yields more BTUs per acre than ethanol from corn. |
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 7:14 pm) "Various renewable fuels can be used to meet the requirements of RFS program, including ethanol and biodiesel. While the RFS program provides the certainty that a minimum amount of renewable fuel will be used in the United States; more can be used if fuel producers and blenders choose to do so." http://www.greencarcongress.com/biodiesel/ It appears that ethanol is just one option. I should also point out that we consumers have the option of using E10, E85 (FFV) or regular gasoline. The auto industry is, in my view, making a big mistake in not taking advantage of the higher octane in E85. The current set of products just do not cut the mustard. "...higher-octane fuels allow for a higher compression ratio - this means less space in a cylinder on its combustion stroke, hence a higher cylinder temperature which improves efficiency according to Carnot's theorem, along with fewer wasted hydrocarbons (therefore less pollution and wasted energy), bringing higher power levels coupled with less pollution overall because of the greater efficiency." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline I would not agree that we lose energy when creating E85. Recent studies from independent researchers are showing that ethanol is somewhat positive. I do agree that biodiesel is better. It is unfortunate that more biodiesel plants are not being built. A big part of the problem actually rests with the users. If we do not demand the product companies will not produce it. One last point about energy, it is not the Btu to Btu ratio that counts, what counts is the cost of the raw material. For example, it may be cost effective to convert cheaper natural gas to gasoline even if you lose a few btus in the process.
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 15, 2006 3:50 pm) They are actually building a quite a few around the country. We invested in one company that cannot keep up with demand for biodiesel. They mainly sell to the Bay area of CA. The difference is that biodiesel does get government incentives as does ethanol. It is not forced on us to the point it becomes a cost burden. Much of the last price run up in gasoline was a result of the ethanol mix mandate. Refiners and distributors were scrambling to find sources for mixing with gas. Ethanol is plentiful in the midwest. Nearly non existent on the west & east coasts. It cannot be transported through pipelines so every gallon has to be trucked or barged to the point it is needed. It is also mixed at the last point before delivery. It is wrought with negatives that are not outweighed by the positives, IMO. |
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 5:01 pm) In terms of the electric vehicle I would constantly be looking at the charge gauge on the trip home. I start my day pretty early so there is not much traffic, but coming home it can get hectic!! Add to this the winter time slow-crawl, and it would be hairy. Defroster going, as well as the heater, sitting in traffic - these are not conditions that batteries like. At the company I used to work we had a few electric vehicle projects, though they were all in warm-weather climes. Even then they were getting hammered as heat is a battery killer too. In recharging, no one discussing the effects on the power grid, recharge cycle, increased electric bills and the like. If we continue to have summers like we had the past two years, the current grids can't keep up, so add in loads from recharging autos and...  What I would like to see are real viable solutions from the Ethanol / electric vehicle standpoints, weighing all the pros and cons.
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Replying to: jae5 (Oct 16, 2006 9:29 am) I don't know if that would be that much of an issue unless your daily commute is near the range of the battery. For me a EV that has a 50 mile range would be more than enough, even if the cold (or hot) weather reduced the range by 50% I would still be getting around with plenty of energy to spare. In recharging, no one discussing the effects on the power grid, recharge cycle, increased electric bills and the like. Well recharging would be done at night when electric use is down, as for increased electric bills that will be more than offset by lower gas bills. Personally I would like to see some system that uses solar panels on the roof of the garage to charge a battery pack or capacitor in the garage that the EV can be plugged into at night, there by reducing your fuel costs that much more. If we continue to have summers like we had the past two years, the current grids can't keep up, so add in loads from recharging autos While I can't say for where you are at here in the chicago area we have had a cooler than normal summer. So I say lets keep getting those summers 
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I think it's kind of funny now in our area (near Hershey, PA) since the farmers are now harvesting all their corn, we are NOT hearing very much about E85 vehicles any more. We have only 1 station down in Lancaster that carriers it (the only station in ALL of Central PA), so there really is not that much of a demand even around the State Capital. Odie Odie's Carspace |
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such as steam power. Water is plentiful, and we now have the technology to be able to use plain recycled garbage (Magazines, newspapers, shredded documents that are processed with some sort of plastic covering that would burn very hot for example.) as fuel. With modern technology and materials we should be able to have a much higher pressures attained or attainable than in the previous endeavors with steam. Pollution would not be as great, as one item would only be water--pure water. The burnt items (newsprint, etc) would be basically recycled trees; i.e.: wood, another very natural fuel.) After all, nuclear powerplants operate by heat producing steam; steam which powers the submarines, aircraft carriers of our modern navy and...and steam powers the nuclear powerplants as well. It might not be as performance minded as we'd like, being accustomed to the high output of gasoline and slightly less of diesel, but it will still allow us to use the automobile for transportation, and not at some distant time in the future force us back into the mode of transportation that the human race had known for all of the centuries previous to the twentieth.
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Replying to: kw5kw (Oct 19, 2006 10:33 am) Rocky |
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Stations may have to halt sales of fuel http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061019/BUSINESS01/610190316/10- 14/BUSINESS01 Rocky
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Replying to: rockylee (Oct 19, 2006 4:03 pm) A move by the nation's largest product-safety laboratory to remove its approval of ethanol fuel pumps has frozen the rollout of new ethanol stations and cast doubt on the legal status of the roughly 1,000 stations already selling E85 fuel. Without certification from Underwriters Laboratories, the company that tests thousands of products for safety and manages the "UL" symbol, state officials and ethanol industry executives say E85 pumps may run afoul of state and local fire codes that require "listed" equipment for pumping fuel. A fire marshal in Columbus, Ohio, ordered two E85 pumps shut down last week because of a lack of UL approval and Michigan officials are wrestling with the question as well. Mark Griffin, president of the Michigan Petroleum Association, which represents 1,500 stores, said state officials were still wrestling with the question of whether the pumps at Michigan's 26 E85 stations still met state standards, and new pumps wouldn't be available until UL clears up the confusion, which "could be a matter of weeks. It could be months or years." "Somebody asked whether this thing is heading toward a train wreck," Griffin said. "Well, I don't know." In a statement, UL said it had no reports of problems with E85 systems, but withdrew its certification due to concerns about how ethanol can corrode parts of the fueling system. |
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