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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 13, 2006 5:20 pm) http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Relationship_between_solar_gener- ation_and_electric_demand_111003025625_Solarpaper11-03.pdf I am sorry to see that look at this issue as an US vs. Them. Maybe we (Midwest and the plain states) should join with Canada, Eh! Why do you think that E85 is pushing us to a bigger environmental mess? As compared to ____? (oil sands mining, flaring of gas from oil production, oil spills, contaminated ground and surface water from gasoline and mtbe)
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 6:23 pm) All important issues for sure. Why add to the mess with dumping huge amounts of fertilizers onto the land that leeches into the rivers. It is creating a huge problem in the Gulf of Mexico. The truth is that farmers are producing more, being subsidized more, and still going broke. Growing corn and soy beans in the current manner is not good for the land and is not helping the farmer. I own a farm in Minnesota. Most of it is left go back to native pasture. I could have someone farm it and maybe make a buck or two. More than likely just spend more than I would take in. If you have lived in the Midwest for a while you saw the last rush for ethanol in the 80s. Most of the old ethanol plants are shut down or torn down. We the US taxpayer subsidized those plants. The only ones that made money back then were companies like Verasun and ADM. It is quite simple. They come in convince the local township to give them land, power and water. In exchange they provide jobs. Then when ethanol goes bust they bail out. Leaving the town with an eyesore and inflated land values to contend with. Maybe the mayor and council got rich. I would like to see a study on the 90+ towns that bought into the last ethanol boom.
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 5:30 pm) It’s not what they are using; it’s what they are using it for. The issue is not about using food crops for fuel, the issue is the fact that E85 is being shoved down our throats by the big AG’s and the auto industry. We are loosing 25% energy with E85 when we could be gaining as much as 30% or more energy with Bio diesel. Considering the effort and energy used to make ethanol, would it not make more since to get more bang for the buck? By the way, if anyone comes up with a way to make fuel out of brussel sprouts, I’m behind you 100%. Not much good for anything else. 
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 7:14 pm) Good idea, also the cucumbers that aren't needed for pickles. I wonder if biodiesel made from soybeans yields more BTUs per acre than ethanol from corn. |
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 7:14 pm) "Various renewable fuels can be used to meet the requirements of RFS program, including ethanol and biodiesel. While the RFS program provides the certainty that a minimum amount of renewable fuel will be used in the United States; more can be used if fuel producers and blenders choose to do so." http://www.greencarcongress.com/biodiesel/ It appears that ethanol is just one option. I should also point out that we consumers have the option of using E10, E85 (FFV) or regular gasoline. The auto industry is, in my view, making a big mistake in not taking advantage of the higher octane in E85. The current set of products just do not cut the mustard. "...higher-octane fuels allow for a higher compression ratio - this means less space in a cylinder on its combustion stroke, hence a higher cylinder temperature which improves efficiency according to Carnot's theorem, along with fewer wasted hydrocarbons (therefore less pollution and wasted energy), bringing higher power levels coupled with less pollution overall because of the greater efficiency." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline I would not agree that we lose energy when creating E85. Recent studies from independent researchers are showing that ethanol is somewhat positive. I do agree that biodiesel is better. It is unfortunate that more biodiesel plants are not being built. A big part of the problem actually rests with the users. If we do not demand the product companies will not produce it. One last point about energy, it is not the Btu to Btu ratio that counts, what counts is the cost of the raw material. For example, it may be cost effective to convert cheaper natural gas to gasoline even if you lose a few btus in the process.
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 15, 2006 3:50 pm) They are actually building a quite a few around the country. We invested in one company that cannot keep up with demand for biodiesel. They mainly sell to the Bay area of CA. The difference is that biodiesel does get government incentives as does ethanol. It is not forced on us to the point it becomes a cost burden. Much of the last price run up in gasoline was a result of the ethanol mix mandate. Refiners and distributors were scrambling to find sources for mixing with gas. Ethanol is plentiful in the midwest. Nearly non existent on the west & east coasts. It cannot be transported through pipelines so every gallon has to be trucked or barged to the point it is needed. It is also mixed at the last point before delivery. It is wrought with negatives that are not outweighed by the positives, IMO. |
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 5:01 pm) In terms of the electric vehicle I would constantly be looking at the charge gauge on the trip home. I start my day pretty early so there is not much traffic, but coming home it can get hectic!! Add to this the winter time slow-crawl, and it would be hairy. Defroster going, as well as the heater, sitting in traffic - these are not conditions that batteries like. At the company I used to work we had a few electric vehicle projects, though they were all in warm-weather climes. Even then they were getting hammered as heat is a battery killer too. In recharging, no one discussing the effects on the power grid, recharge cycle, increased electric bills and the like. If we continue to have summers like we had the past two years, the current grids can't keep up, so add in loads from recharging autos and...  What I would like to see are real viable solutions from the Ethanol / electric vehicle standpoints, weighing all the pros and cons.
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Replying to: jae5 (Oct 16, 2006 9:29 am) I don't know if that would be that much of an issue unless your daily commute is near the range of the battery. For me a EV that has a 50 mile range would be more than enough, even if the cold (or hot) weather reduced the range by 50% I would still be getting around with plenty of energy to spare. In recharging, no one discussing the effects on the power grid, recharge cycle, increased electric bills and the like. Well recharging would be done at night when electric use is down, as for increased electric bills that will be more than offset by lower gas bills. Personally I would like to see some system that uses solar panels on the roof of the garage to charge a battery pack or capacitor in the garage that the EV can be plugged into at night, there by reducing your fuel costs that much more. If we continue to have summers like we had the past two years, the current grids can't keep up, so add in loads from recharging autos While I can't say for where you are at here in the chicago area we have had a cooler than normal summer. So I say lets keep getting those summers 
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I think it's kind of funny now in our area (near Hershey, PA) since the farmers are now harvesting all their corn, we are NOT hearing very much about E85 vehicles any more. We have only 1 station down in Lancaster that carriers it (the only station in ALL of Central PA), so there really is not that much of a demand even around the State Capital. Odie Odie's Carspace |
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such as steam power. Water is plentiful, and we now have the technology to be able to use plain recycled garbage (Magazines, newspapers, shredded documents that are processed with some sort of plastic covering that would burn very hot for example.) as fuel. With modern technology and materials we should be able to have a much higher pressures attained or attainable than in the previous endeavors with steam. Pollution would not be as great, as one item would only be water--pure water. The burnt items (newsprint, etc) would be basically recycled trees; i.e.: wood, another very natural fuel.) After all, nuclear powerplants operate by heat producing steam; steam which powers the submarines, aircraft carriers of our modern navy and...and steam powers the nuclear powerplants as well. It might not be as performance minded as we'd like, being accustomed to the high output of gasoline and slightly less of diesel, but it will still allow us to use the automobile for transportation, and not at some distant time in the future force us back into the mode of transportation that the human race had known for all of the centuries previous to the twentieth.
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