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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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1.62 for E85 sounds ok compared to the 2.49 i'm paying for diesel. but diesel is still a win with 44 mpg. what would that 1.62 be if there were no subsidies? one of my ethanol-stooge midwestern aggie pals says the subsidies have expired. anyhoo: 1.62/2.49 * 44 = 28 mpg for the equivalent cost/mile with E85. maybe a scooter could get 28 mpg on E85 but not a real car! |
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Replying to: tiredofterror (Oct 13, 2006 11:07 am) Plug-in hybrids will be an option as the tech gets more mainstream. The manufacturers are still getting comfortable with the hybrid tech. These things take time. I really don't think we will be there tomorrow or next year for that matter. Where are you going to get the raw material needed for 1 million, 10 million or 20 million sets of batteries a year? You just don't go down to the local wally-mart to order a few million batteries. Toyota has already said that lack of batteries is holding back sales of their hybrids. "Explosive growth in the number of hybrid gas/electric vehicles manufactured and sold in coming years may strain makers of the expensive battery packs that help power them." http://www.auto-careers.org/hybrids%20Newspape%20%20artr.htm Cold weather is a battery killer. Up here in the North Country you are going to have a hard time convincing people to use a battery based vehicle when the temp drops to the point where your nose hairs freeze and the snow makes a cool crunching sound when you walk on it. It takes a lot of energy to keep the windows frost free, the car toasty warm and the 300 watt stereo cranking  I also wonder what kind of strain all those battery powered cars will put on the power grid. I suspect that some electric grids (California) are at or near capacity on hot days. Maybe someone out there can do the math to see what the additional load would be on the power grid? E85, and ethanol production in general, is making a big difference in the midwest. Jobs, Jobs and Jobs! |
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 5:01 pm) I think the general consensus is most cars with plug in capability will be plugged in at night when the demand is the lowest. Kind of balance out the usage. I am sure the ethanol boondoggle has created jobs in the Midwest. At the expense of the rest of us. Little or no redeeming value to ethanol. PLUS it is pushing us to a much bigger environmental mess with the added corn production.
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 12:59 pm) Actually, things are not that simple. The bulk of corn production is used for feed/residual (56%) and export (18%). Not that much percentage wise is used in food products. http://www.ncga.com/WorldOfCorn/main/consumptionData.htm "Distiller’s grains plus solubles (DGS) is a feed co-product produced in wet and dry forms as a result of ethanol production. ... Beef cattle are typically maintained on forage diets, which may require protein, energy and phosphorus supplementation. Most forage protein is degraded in the rumen therefore cattle also require undegraded protein supplementation. Distiller’s grains plus solubles provides undegraded protein and phosphorus in a high-energy supplement that will not depress forage digestion due to its low starch content." http://www.traill.uiuc.edu/beefnet/paperDisplay?ContentID=8575 Since a lot of the anti-E85 people do not want to see corn used for fuel, should we also convert the tobacco farms to food crops? That would lower food prices, right? 
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Replying to: gagrice (Oct 13, 2006 5:20 pm) http://www.state.mn.us/mn/externalDocs/Commerce/Relationship_between_solar_gener- ation_and_electric_demand_111003025625_Solarpaper11-03.pdf I am sorry to see that look at this issue as an US vs. Them. Maybe we (Midwest and the plain states) should join with Canada, Eh! Why do you think that E85 is pushing us to a bigger environmental mess? As compared to ____? (oil sands mining, flaring of gas from oil production, oil spills, contaminated ground and surface water from gasoline and mtbe)
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 6:23 pm) All important issues for sure. Why add to the mess with dumping huge amounts of fertilizers onto the land that leeches into the rivers. It is creating a huge problem in the Gulf of Mexico. The truth is that farmers are producing more, being subsidized more, and still going broke. Growing corn and soy beans in the current manner is not good for the land and is not helping the farmer. I own a farm in Minnesota. Most of it is left go back to native pasture. I could have someone farm it and maybe make a buck or two. More than likely just spend more than I would take in. If you have lived in the Midwest for a while you saw the last rush for ethanol in the 80s. Most of the old ethanol plants are shut down or torn down. We the US taxpayer subsidized those plants. The only ones that made money back then were companies like Verasun and ADM. It is quite simple. They come in convince the local township to give them land, power and water. In exchange they provide jobs. Then when ethanol goes bust they bail out. Leaving the town with an eyesore and inflated land values to contend with. Maybe the mayor and council got rich. I would like to see a study on the 90+ towns that bought into the last ethanol boom.
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 13, 2006 5:30 pm) It’s not what they are using; it’s what they are using it for. The issue is not about using food crops for fuel, the issue is the fact that E85 is being shoved down our throats by the big AG’s and the auto industry. We are loosing 25% energy with E85 when we could be gaining as much as 30% or more energy with Bio diesel. Considering the effort and energy used to make ethanol, would it not make more since to get more bang for the buck? By the way, if anyone comes up with a way to make fuel out of brussel sprouts, I’m behind you 100%. Not much good for anything else. 
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 7:14 pm) Good idea, also the cucumbers that aren't needed for pickles. I wonder if biodiesel made from soybeans yields more BTUs per acre than ethanol from corn. |
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Replying to: jkinzel (Oct 13, 2006 7:14 pm) "Various renewable fuels can be used to meet the requirements of RFS program, including ethanol and biodiesel. While the RFS program provides the certainty that a minimum amount of renewable fuel will be used in the United States; more can be used if fuel producers and blenders choose to do so." http://www.greencarcongress.com/biodiesel/ It appears that ethanol is just one option. I should also point out that we consumers have the option of using E10, E85 (FFV) or regular gasoline. The auto industry is, in my view, making a big mistake in not taking advantage of the higher octane in E85. The current set of products just do not cut the mustard. "...higher-octane fuels allow for a higher compression ratio - this means less space in a cylinder on its combustion stroke, hence a higher cylinder temperature which improves efficiency according to Carnot's theorem, along with fewer wasted hydrocarbons (therefore less pollution and wasted energy), bringing higher power levels coupled with less pollution overall because of the greater efficiency." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline I would not agree that we lose energy when creating E85. Recent studies from independent researchers are showing that ethanol is somewhat positive. I do agree that biodiesel is better. It is unfortunate that more biodiesel plants are not being built. A big part of the problem actually rests with the users. If we do not demand the product companies will not produce it. One last point about energy, it is not the Btu to Btu ratio that counts, what counts is the cost of the raw material. For example, it may be cost effective to convert cheaper natural gas to gasoline even if you lose a few btus in the process.
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Replying to: avalon02wh (Oct 15, 2006 3:50 pm) They are actually building a quite a few around the country. We invested in one company that cannot keep up with demand for biodiesel. They mainly sell to the Bay area of CA. The difference is that biodiesel does get government incentives as does ethanol. It is not forced on us to the point it becomes a cost burden. Much of the last price run up in gasoline was a result of the ethanol mix mandate. Refiners and distributors were scrambling to find sources for mixing with gas. Ethanol is plentiful in the midwest. Nearly non existent on the west & east coasts. It cannot be transported through pipelines so every gallon has to be trucked or barged to the point it is needed. It is also mixed at the last point before delivery. It is wrought with negatives that are not outweighed by the positives, IMO. |
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