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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: alp8 (Aug 17, 2006 6:50 pm) Here are a few facts: Lots of folks like to drive SUVs & PU trucks. The ones I know including myself do not tell others they need to buy a little car so the net affect will be a savings in fossil fuel. Here is another one. The fertilizer being dumped on the land to get higher yeilds of corn is killing a big area of the Gulf. And how about the fact that we have ethanol as a result of well placed money in our government by lobbyists. And the last fact. I would be willing to drive a smaller PU truck that got an honest 30-35 MPG running on diesel. Too many politicians trying to decide which constituency they want to shmooze for the opcoming election. They usually go for the gullible voters.
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Replying to: gagrice (Aug 17, 2006 8:34 pm) Lots of folks like to drive SUVs & PU trucks. The ones I know including myself do not tell others they need to buy a little car so the net affect will be a savings in fossil fuel. Here is another one. The fertilizer being dumped on the land to get higher yeilds of corn is killing a big area of the Gulf. And how about the fact that we have ethanol as a result of well placed money in our government by lobbyists. And the last fact. I would be willing to drive a smaller PU truck that got an honest 30-35 MPG running on diesel. Too many politicians trying to decide which constituency they want to shmooze for the opcoming election. They usually go for the gullible voters and THOSE are all FACTS that are worth discussing and I won't judge the validity of those facts based on whether you drive an SUV or a UFO I am not arguing that it is immoral and fattening to drive an SUV I am arguing that the facts are what matter, not whether the guy whose mouth forms and utters the words is a ninny I think we get distracted by BS like "Obama drove away in an SUV" when we should be asking ourselves, "hmm...our SUVs a good idea? Can the earth sustain this level of carbon dioxide generation? Can the earth handle all the chemicals being flushed into our rivers? What can we do to help our youth learn to read better? What's a good way to teach my daughter how to drive?" I know it's entertaining to bash a politician. And I agree the hypocrisy is apparent, and is an easy target. but it's not as important as the message, itself. And I think it is wrongheaded to get distracted by it. That is, if you care, at all, about global warming. Even if you disagree that it's happening or that man plays a negative role, you should still care about the debate. I guess if you've made up your mind, then you might as well bash a guy who is just trying to put the idea in people's minds that they can do a good thing, instead of a bad thing. though I'm not sure that pushing FFVs is a good thing pushing non-SUVs is a good thing - hard to see that as being "bad" for our society. It's not like he's trying to convince us to go home and bite the heads of our budgies. I'm sorry if gagrice disagrees with how domestic policy is made. I can't change Washington. No one can or has. I suggest donating money to organizations who champion your case. I am sure there is a pro-diesel pickup lobbying group out there. Maybe you need to make inroads into an environmental group and help establish policies there. There are a lot of pro-diesel people IN enviro. groups, and they agree with you on the corn issue. It's not like every NRDC member loves ADM, after all. It's OK that you and your truck-driving friends don't tell other folks what to drive. No one is criticizing you for the messages that you are not stating. I think if your message was "Don't conserve. Even if you don't need an SUV, you should go buy one" - well, I'd say your message would be ridiculous, regardless of what you drive. The message is what matters. Judge the message. |
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I don't know if our representatives subscribe to a newsletter service or if they write their own. I kind of hope they all write their own, just to keep up the illusion. My Congresswoman (and in this case she literally lives about a mile from where I live) has been sending Ethanol newsletters to her constiuents for several months now. These newsletters have been touting the work being done in Congress to address and hopefully "cure" our addiction to oil (of note, of course, from the State of the Union address in 2006.) Fine, I am for "alternatives" -- I am even for Ethanol. Or, at least I would be and/or may become an Ethanol (E85) advocate were their an economic case that could make me believe it can succeed. At present, I can see no possible way for E85 to be successful in the next several years. We have seen written here, including many citations of sources, the "facts." We have seen the lower MPG's that are associated with E85 vs E10 or E0. We have seen the subsidy that, if and when it goes away, will merely serve to strengthen the case AGAINST Ethanol. Now, here comes a predicted "erosion" of the price of a bbl of oil. The market mavens, the oil bulls and bears have been predicting events -- pocketbook events -- for some time now. Mostly they have been right. The case FOR $80bbl oil was made. The results were as predicted, as oil went into the $70's we saw the price per gallon of gasoline shoot up. The oil companies, the Congress, the news media all with their various perspectives told us "we have plenty of oil, this is NOT a supply and demand situation at this time, there are no fundamental reasons for oil to be priced as it is." Oil has been priced as it is, of course, because of, hmmm, fear? terror? political issues (aka stability)? all of the above? Well friends and neighbors. . .are you now ready for some cheap gas? Recent Analysis Excerpts: Fear and uncertainty in global energy markets have encouraged increased speculative activity and have forced oil prices higher. Speculative pressures could easily unwind, sending oil prices down in a fairly rapid manner. Rising fears of a downturn in global demand could serve as the catalyst that unwinds these pressures. It has been argued before about the increased role that many believe speculative forces are playing in driving oil prices. Over the past two years oil prices have increasingly been divorced from fundamentals and buffeted by forces of fear and uncertainty. In all, many believe speculative forces have pushed oil prices up by between $15 and $20 per barrel. While these forces have thus far focused on the bullish side, driving oil prices up relentlessly, the odds of the tide turning are increasing by the day. It is too soon to tell for sure, but the increasing concern about moderating global demand for oil in the past week, especially in the wake of the thwarted terrorist plot against airlines in the U.K., could be the catalyst for the market. Translation, "a" translation: lower pump prices. Meanwhile my Congresswoman is blowing her and Congress' horn about what a great job they've been doing in promoting E85. My Congresswoman was on the front page of the local newpaper here in Cincinnati -- the picture was of her standing next to the fuel filler door on her brand new FFV Tahoe. Note: Ohio has 9 E85 stations, number 10 is coming to Cincinnati next month. Her political opponent says she is insincere -- and claims she will ride a bike if she is elected. She claims her political opponent (they are both women by the way) is insincere because she bought a Tahoe that costs north of $37,000 and that most people cannot afford them so she is "out of touch." Politics aside, I do not think my Congresswoman is in any way insincere. I think she may be "ignorant" of some of the facts and I told her so. She first responded, "E85 is a way to stop sending money to the Persian Gulf." Maybe. My next "how can that be?" email was greeted with, "I'd rather send money to Iowa than Iran." Then, when I hit reply and said, "people will not willingly and knowingly work against their own economic interests and even if they do, they won't for long." She said, "E85 is an Alternative, I am for Alternatives, Mark!" Hard to argue with that. My reply to the Congresswoman follows in the next post.  |
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"Congresswoman: As am I. I am so in agreement with you. I would love to stop sending our $ to the Persian Gulf area, do not think I think otherwise. Yet, ethanol TODAY will cost the consumer ~ 16.5 cents per mile in their vehicles, where in a similar vehicle, dino gasoline would cost ~ 10 cents per mile (these figures are based on average miles per gallon, of course -- some vehicles will cost more for both fuels, some will cost less and these figures assume the phase out of the $.51 per gallon subsidy.) Diesel -- CLEAN Dino-Diesel -- NOT EVEN BIODIESEL, that is, if adopted by 30% of the driving population would eliminate our need for Middle Eastern oil based on February 2006 studies made by the EPA. Business Week Feb 20th, 2006. Diesel has more energy in it that gasoline -- a gas fueled vehicle that can go ~25 miles per gallon on E10, if equipped with a similarly powered diesel engine would travel ~35 miles per gallon (~40%+.) That same car if equipped with a Flexible Fuel Engine (such as your new Tahoe) will go ~17 miles on a gallon of E85. Today, a gallon of E10, E85 and Dino (not bio) Diesel all cost about $3.00 (but the E85 is subsidized $.51 per gallon). If the vehicle using E10 can go 25 miles on a gallon this means it will cost $3.00 to drive 25 miles. If this same vehicle can use E85, it can go but 17 miles on a gallon, this means it will cost $3.90 to drive 25 miles. If this same vehicle were offered with a similarly powerful diesel, it can go 35 miles on a gallon this means it will cost $2.14 to drive 25 miles. Any vehicle that can run on the currently coming on line US Clean Diesel can also run on Bio-diesel, i.e., anything from B20 to B100 (B100 is 100% bio-diesel.) Bio-diesel, when manufactured using soybeans allows the soybeans to be used for fuel and for food. Ethanol, when manufactured using corn does not allow the corn to be used for fuel and food -- only fuel. Diesel and Bio-diesel can be transported in the currently in-place pipeline infrastructure. Ethanol (E85) cannot be transported in the currently in-place pipeline infrastructure, it must, at this point, be entirely sent via truck at a higher cost -- and using a truck to transport the E85 in bulk actually means that the net energy put into making AND delivering ethanol to the consumer is GREATER than the net energy output when ethanol is finally used in a Flexible Fuel Vehicle. There is a net loss of BTU's that is. Buying an FFV Tahoe -- even if it is entirely for symbolic reasons -- is not a bad, or evil or "insincere" (as your opponent claims) act. I believe you purchased the vehicle for the right reasons, probably both personally and politically. And, you could purchase the biggest gas hog on the planet earth and drive it for all I care -- it is, after all, still a free country. However, buying (or leasing) a currently available or soon to be available diesel vehicle (even if it were an SUV as big as a Tahoe) would actually have made not only a symbolic statement, but it would have actually reduced our need for foreign oil, improved your mileage (and lowered your personal out of pocket costs) and actually reduced the emissions of greenhouse gasses slightly. As FFV's hit the market, even if we could count on ample fueling locations, the huge increase in operating costs will come to the fore -- Mr and Ms America, middle class, lower class and upper class (democrats, independents and republicans) alike will become aware of the more frequent fueling stops and the associated higher costs (perhaps as high as 65% higher.) You certainly couldn't be happy with your opponents characterization of you as "rich" and "out of touch" with your constituents any more than you represent -- by buying the Tahoe -- "insincerity." It is my considered opinion, that you would -- as the "cost-to-drive using E85 data" becomes fodder for even the likes of Matt Laurer on the Today Show -- gain more in every aspect/respect were you to ditch the Tahoe FFV in favor of a diesel powered vehicle. Here is another thought: with only 10 E85 fueling stations (one in "your neck of the woods") in Ohio, you had better not be video taped filling up with anything BUT E85 or there will be "hell to pay" in the media. The best solution "in the pipeline" today would seem to be a diesel-electric hybrid, fueled with Bio-Willie (at least B20 that is.) Too bad it is almost impossible today, to buy such a vehicle. I do believe there will be several to buy, however, within the next 2 years. Meantime, clean diesel gets us Americans a real Alternative to getting off of Middle Eastern Oil, improving our miles per gallon, lowering our personal costs for fuel and even being a bit friendlier to the Earth's atmosphere. Thanks for your time." My question to the forum: don't Congresspeople have research assistants, folks who would check facts and do all they can to make sure their bosses don't do the "wrong things for the right reasons?" 
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Replying to: alp8 (Aug 17, 2006 6:50 pm) So do I but that doesn't change the fact that Obama is being hypocritical when it comes to energy conservation. I expect more from a U.S. Senator (yes I know I get disappointed a lot). |
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This personal beef has gone on long enough. Time to get back to the discussion of E85 and off of this Obama nonsense. It's also time to stop the personal comments. Any further postings with comments about other users will be deleted. |
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