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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 21, 2006 10:25 pm) Have you ever analyzed this supposed flop? Take a look at the motivation. First CA mandates ZEV cars will make up a percentage of all cars on CA roads. The Feds toss money at GM to come up with a solution. Very similar to the current E85 boondoggle. 6 million FFVs and a handful of stations selling E85. With the current ethanol price at around 5 bucks a gallon how many people will even consider filling with E85. No dealer in the country is selling E85 cheap enough to make up for the loss of mileage. If it were not for government vehicles using E85 not much would be sold. One good thing came out of the Electric Vehicle mandate. NiMH batteries were developed by GM and associates. To me it was not a flop as it was never given a chance in the market place. The cars were only leased in the 3 metro areas of CA. The home hookup was a costly $3000 device and the commercial power locations were riff with problems. To me the flop was a direct result of government trying to force something that was not ready for prime time. It probably set the EV back 30 years. Kind of like the GM diesel engine of the 1980s. Technology advances better when market driven not government mandated.
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jun 22, 2006 4:12 am) Same here except when I sit in traffic in my commute I ask myself is high performance really worth it. A car that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds can't outrun a car that does it in 10 seconds in a rush hour grid lock. Maybe the goal is to increase performance so that instead of measuring 0-60 in under 6 seconds, we can measure it in under 6 nano-seconds ("instant on?") That is rather humorous in itself, but the reality of going from 0-60 in 6 nano seconds would most likely kill the driver and all occupants. I bet a hybrid luxobarge that can accelerate to 60mph in under 5 seconds would be a rush -- so I guess I'll just conclude with "don't knock it, until you've tried it" and hope someone wants me to try it. A $100,000 car is not the direction I want to go. if you want 0-60 in under 5 seconds you can get several alternatives and save yourself 10's of thousands of dollars to boot.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 22, 2006 5:42 am) One of the producers for the soon to be released "Who Killed the Electric Car" is also a former owner of an EV1. When his lease expired he offered to buy the car outright for $200,000. He was refused and the GM representative said these cars were all destined for Universities and other research facilities. Not the case. They went to AZ to be crushed. In Edmund's article about this movie the GM chief states one of his biggest regrets is dropping the EV program. His opinion is probably based on some insight that most of us don't posess. |
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Jun 22, 2006 6:14 am) |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 22, 2006 5:42 am) I have, and the issue has nothing to do with CARB or some great conspiracy. Enough of the rhetoric -- tell me a single time within the last fifty years when a large segment of Americans wanted diesel cars. Of course, you know the answer: there isn't a single time when Americans wanted large quantities of diesel cars. Not once. Even when the regulations played no role whatsoever. |
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Jun 22, 2006 6:14 am) My beloved Audi W12 cannot, the S8 V10 cannot. The RS6 isn't out yet and regardless would probably cost close to 100K. I was, mostly, joking, since a $100,000 car wouldn't be on my radar screen, unless it was purchased with OPM. Not likely, I'd wager. The thing about all these alternative technologies is that to succeed I believe they have to trickle down from the flagship cars. The Prius is either the second or third "worst car" in the world based on its DRIVING characteristics, not its DRIVE-LINE characteristics or "motivation." I saw a test report of the Prius and it apparently has almost not capability of cornering at any speed above a crawl unless it is on dry pavement. You couldn't even give one to me, unless I thought I could turn it around and sell it -- and, even then I would be worried that I would be selling a car that would make even Ralph Nader long for a Corvair. None of the preceding has anything to do, of course, with hybrid technology. The Prius, if ever there was a car that could kill a potentially decent approach to a problem, is that car. Lexus is getting its act together -- it just strikes me as odd that the cars they are putting on the market really can make no claim to improving our use of fossil fuel.
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 22, 2006 3:37 am) At this point, I'd say that it's true today for the Prius, and probably will soon be true for the more conventional cars. If it didn't have any accompanying downsides, you could probably introduce them in the next generation and gain consumer acceptance. It has been, in part, an issue of timing, it would have been too soon to do it before the product gained popularity. But now that the product has generated both buzz and actual sales in significant numbers, the tie-in to older EV's is not as risky, and may even be a plus. There is a company that will be introducting a conversion package in the UK, but it is expensive (well over US$20k at introduction) and requires extra batteries. They are reporting getting over 105 mpg (US gallons) with this in place. Could be an interesting prototype, if it works.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 22, 2006 5:42 am) Maybe it is different on the coasts where e85 is scarce, but in MN, we have over 100 stations. I even found one in Cohasset, population 2476, right on US hwy 2. In my neighborhood it is $2.39 for a gallon of e85 and $2.85 for gas. It was better in Cohasset where e85 was My Taurus gets 20mpg on e85, 22 mpg on gas. that is 1.1 gallons of e85 for every gallon of gas, so I am saving about $0.22 for every gallon of e85 I am using. Gas would have to be 2.63 (2.39*1.1) for me to break even. Since I am saving $0.22 per gallon, I am saving a lot of money...$165 this year alone (or five tanks of gas). I have driven over 15k miles with e85 and ~10k miles on gas (before I knew it could use e85), so I know the mileage numbers are very accurate. The only problem I have ever had is the octane rating is over 100 for e85, and the Taurus's computer is such a piece of crap (it is a Ford) it cannot tell that the octane is so much higher than 87, so it takes a couple of cranks to start. However, once it starts, it runs fine. |
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jun 22, 2006 7:21 am) My beloved Audi W12 cannot, the S8 V10 cannot. The RS6 isn't out yet and regardless would probably cost close to 100K. I am surprised an Audi W12 cannot. Anyway my Caddy can beat 5 seconds (but its an entry level size and not "large" and is in the low $50's) and I know that the STS-V can also beat that mark too and thats only $75K. I would expect the BMW 7 series to be in that area and the start in the low $70's. And I do believe that MB has a few AMG's that can do it starting in the low $80's (but not sure if they are considered full size). |
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 22, 2006 7:25 am) There are companies that have been doing the same thing in this country. The price I've read is under $12k, which is still too expensive for the mainstream. The biggest downside is that Toyota will void your warranty, which I find excessive. I can understand them not backing any part of the car that you've modified but other than that, IMO, it should still be covered. http://calcars.org/ The mileage 100+ mpg claims are a little misleading because they suggest you have magically achieved this astonishing level of efficiency when all you've done is replace gas power with some grid power. Still a good deal just somewhat distorted. Theoretically by their methodology you could achieve infinite miles per gallon if you limited your speed and distances driven. |
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