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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: jae5 (Jun 22, 2006 4:29 am) Prices vary around the country. At the SuperGas USA station in Rockford, Minn., owner Cal Ismail says E85 is getting more popular. He charges $2.39 a gallon, 30 cents less than regular gasoline at $2.69 a gallon. Although it's cheaper, motorists can't drive as far. The Energy Department says a motorist needs 1.4 gallons of E85 to travel the same distance as on a gallon of gas. At an Exxon station in Columbia, S.C., owner Mike McMenamin says he has to charge $2.76 a gallon for E85, compared with $2.69 for regular. He says he's sometimes lucky to break even on E85 purchases. "You can't expect the American consumer to buy ethanol if it's less miles per gallon and costs more. Even if you're the ultimate tree hugger, you won't do that," McMenamin says. |
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jun 22, 2006 4:12 am) I think the whole Toyota hybrid story is a smoke screen. They came out with the unusual Prius and have limited the production to keep it from being over exposed. Mainly because it is a "Loss Leader". I am sure they are making money on the other hybrids that have come later. They still only appeal to the techno geek or HOV commuter. Lots of gadgets. I propose in 7-10 years when the gadgets get old and the repair costs are through the roof you will see a lot of unhappy Toyota owners. As an example one fellow posted he was charged $250 on his 2006 Prius when it ran out of gas. I guess it had to be reset by the dealer. Who ever heard of a car that is disabled when you run out of gas. I think that all these alternatives are just flailing with no purpose or direction. What happened to simple solutions and American ingenuity? |
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Replying to: seniorjose (Jun 21, 2006 10:31 am) |
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 21, 2006 10:25 pm) Have you ever analyzed this supposed flop? Take a look at the motivation. First CA mandates ZEV cars will make up a percentage of all cars on CA roads. The Feds toss money at GM to come up with a solution. Very similar to the current E85 boondoggle. 6 million FFVs and a handful of stations selling E85. With the current ethanol price at around 5 bucks a gallon how many people will even consider filling with E85. No dealer in the country is selling E85 cheap enough to make up for the loss of mileage. If it were not for government vehicles using E85 not much would be sold. One good thing came out of the Electric Vehicle mandate. NiMH batteries were developed by GM and associates. To me it was not a flop as it was never given a chance in the market place. The cars were only leased in the 3 metro areas of CA. The home hookup was a costly $3000 device and the commercial power locations were riff with problems. To me the flop was a direct result of government trying to force something that was not ready for prime time. It probably set the EV back 30 years. Kind of like the GM diesel engine of the 1980s. Technology advances better when market driven not government mandated.
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Replying to: markcincinnati (Jun 22, 2006 4:12 am) Same here except when I sit in traffic in my commute I ask myself is high performance really worth it. A car that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds can't outrun a car that does it in 10 seconds in a rush hour grid lock. Maybe the goal is to increase performance so that instead of measuring 0-60 in under 6 seconds, we can measure it in under 6 nano-seconds ("instant on?") That is rather humorous in itself, but the reality of going from 0-60 in 6 nano seconds would most likely kill the driver and all occupants. I bet a hybrid luxobarge that can accelerate to 60mph in under 5 seconds would be a rush -- so I guess I'll just conclude with "don't knock it, until you've tried it" and hope someone wants me to try it. A $100,000 car is not the direction I want to go. if you want 0-60 in under 5 seconds you can get several alternatives and save yourself 10's of thousands of dollars to boot.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 22, 2006 5:42 am) One of the producers for the soon to be released "Who Killed the Electric Car" is also a former owner of an EV1. When his lease expired he offered to buy the car outright for $200,000. He was refused and the GM representative said these cars were all destined for Universities and other research facilities. Not the case. They went to AZ to be crushed. In Edmund's article about this movie the GM chief states one of his biggest regrets is dropping the EV program. His opinion is probably based on some insight that most of us don't posess. |
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Jun 22, 2006 6:14 am) |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 22, 2006 5:42 am) I have, and the issue has nothing to do with CARB or some great conspiracy. Enough of the rhetoric -- tell me a single time within the last fifty years when a large segment of Americans wanted diesel cars. Of course, you know the answer: there isn't a single time when Americans wanted large quantities of diesel cars. Not once. Even when the regulations played no role whatsoever. |
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Jun 22, 2006 6:14 am) My beloved Audi W12 cannot, the S8 V10 cannot. The RS6 isn't out yet and regardless would probably cost close to 100K. I was, mostly, joking, since a $100,000 car wouldn't be on my radar screen, unless it was purchased with OPM. Not likely, I'd wager. The thing about all these alternative technologies is that to succeed I believe they have to trickle down from the flagship cars. The Prius is either the second or third "worst car" in the world based on its DRIVING characteristics, not its DRIVE-LINE characteristics or "motivation." I saw a test report of the Prius and it apparently has almost not capability of cornering at any speed above a crawl unless it is on dry pavement. You couldn't even give one to me, unless I thought I could turn it around and sell it -- and, even then I would be worried that I would be selling a car that would make even Ralph Nader long for a Corvair. None of the preceding has anything to do, of course, with hybrid technology. The Prius, if ever there was a car that could kill a potentially decent approach to a problem, is that car. Lexus is getting its act together -- it just strikes me as odd that the cars they are putting on the market really can make no claim to improving our use of fossil fuel.
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 22, 2006 3:37 am) At this point, I'd say that it's true today for the Prius, and probably will soon be true for the more conventional cars. If it didn't have any accompanying downsides, you could probably introduce them in the next generation and gain consumer acceptance. It has been, in part, an issue of timing, it would have been too soon to do it before the product gained popularity. But now that the product has generated both buzz and actual sales in significant numbers, the tie-in to older EV's is not as risky, and may even be a plus. There is a company that will be introducting a conversion package in the UK, but it is expensive (well over US$20k at introduction) and requires extra batteries. They are reporting getting over 105 mpg (US gallons) with this in place. Could be an interesting prototype, if it works.
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