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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
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E85 arrives at co-op pumps STACY LANGLEY, The Huron Daily Tribune 06/21/2006 The Cooperative Elevator Co. recently made a place for the ethanol-blend at its retail fueling stations in Ruth and Pigeon. Tim Sielaff, vice president of petroleum for the Cooperative Elevator, said they went on-line offering E85 at the Ruth location on June 7, followed by the Pigeon location several days later. Today, all systems are a go. “Our customers can now pull in, fuel up and pull out with E85 in their tank,” Sielaff said. “Adding E85 is a move that I feel shows the commitment we have made to our growers by offering alternative fuels and biodiesels here at the co-op. “We’ve been in the ethanol business for more than 30 years, offering ethanol products. And we’ve been in the biodiesel business for seven or maybe into our eighth year. Now we can say we’re the first ones in Huron County to offer E85 retail.” E85 FlexFuel vehicles can run on any combination of gasoline and/or E85, a fuel blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. Sielaff credits E85 as a move toward creating energy independence in the United States because it diversifies the source of transportation fuels beyond petroleum. And he said it provides positive environmental benefits in the form of reduced greenhouse gas emissions. “Using E85 is an option. Research has shown many owners of flexfuel vehicles are unaware their vehicles are capable of using E85, but recent strides are being made across the state to better inform consumers about E85,” he said. “We (the co-op) are currently working to purchase several vehicles that will use E85 — right now we are in the bidding process to do so. Our gasoline pick-ups we are using now burn a 10 percent ethanol blend, and all of our diesel vehicles use biodiesel. It’s important to us because of the investment the farmers are making in the co-op — we want to in return do everything we can by using the products and supporting the soybean and corn growers here.” The sales fleet Sielaff mentioned involves about a dozen vehicles. “We’re working on trying to figure out exactly what we need. Right now our sales people use their own vehicles, and you can’t tell someone what to do or what to burn in their own personal vehicles. We want to have all our own fleet that uses E85. We plan on labeling those vehicles and promoting the products made by many of our growers — promote corn and soybeans,” he said. “It makes sense financially to do this. We will have all the vehicles lettered letting people know they are E85 vehicles — just another opportunity to enhance our growers’ value.” As for value right now at the pump, Sielaff said the Co-op is offering E85 at a price slightly higher than unleaded gasoline. He said it’s simply a matter of supply and demand — there just isn’t enough E85 to go around. One reason is refineries have switched their production from winter-grade gas to cleaner burning ethanol-based summer grades. Nationwide they’ve stopped using MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether) and are switching to ethanol, which is more expensive to make and costs more to get from an ethanol plant to the pump. “Ethanol is expensive — it’s expensive to buy, it’s expensive to truck,” Sielaff said. “Right now at the pump in Ruth (and Pigeon) we’re selling it for $2.99 a gallon. The only reason we can do that is because we bought some prior to contracts expiring. Today our E85 is very close to the same price as no-lead. But if I had to go buy it today, it would be about 80 cents higher than no-lead. And at those prices I don’t think there are many people who can afford E85 at rack price. “We’re doing our best to find the best prices we can. We want to be able to provide this to our customers with the expectation that a year or two years down the road there will be more supply to meet the demand and the cost will come down.” Sielaff said that demand by other states across the nation for ethanol is yet another reason E85 is so costly. “Right now ethanol is the fuel oxygenate of choice for most refineries in the United States after a fierce battle with (MTBE). Oxygenates are chemicals added to gasoline to make them burn more efficiently,” he said. “The ethanol trend is good news for Michigan, because it is expected to create hundreds of jobs and spur millions of dollars of economic growth in areas that choose to produce and distribute the fuel.” A typical ethanol plant making 40 million gallons a year employs about 50 people. Michigan is among the nation's leading corn producers with more than 257 million bushels a year. Currently Michigan Ethanol LLC in Caro is the lone ethanol plant in Michigan, producing 45 million gallons a year. Michigan still is 11th in the nation in terms of overall production — but not for long. Sielaff said four more plants are on their way. They are Great Lakes Ethanol in Riga, Superior Corn Products in Lake Odessa, Andersons Inc. in Albion and Marysville Ethanol of Marysville. All which are expected to come online within two years and combined produce more than 200 million gallons of ethanol a year. “When they can increase the supply, of course the price will go down. Right now they can’t keep up with the demand for E85,” Sielaff said. “We get calls from all over the state for biodiesel and E85, now we can offer it at our retail locations. We can cater to the public, our fueling systems are designed to be unattended to help keep the costs down. We want to be able to set people who are interested in becoming customers up with a card, then all they have to do is pull up to our filling station, insert their card and fuel up.” Sielaff said the co-op also recently invested in the first biodiesel plant in Michigan (Michigan Biodiesel LLC) which will begin production in July. Located in Van Buren County, it’s a 10 million gallon plant and has the versatility for using multiple feedstocks. Biodiesel is nontoxic, renewable, and biodegradable fuel produced from domestic resources such as soybeans. It is a cleaner burning fuel than petroleum. Pat Anderson, chief executive officer of the Cooperative Elevator said “the purpose of the minor investment of 1.176 percent in Michigan BioDiesel LLC is to have a viable interest in the biodiesel market and to promote the use of renewable fuels with agricultural products.” “We did this is for the long-term investment in alternative fuels,” Sielaff added. “We actually made a cash investment in a biodiesel plant. There was a limit to the amount of stock that any one entity could own. We didn’t purchase the maximum amount, and we surely would have liked to have purchased more. We feel biodiesel is important — being a totally grower-owned co-op it was important to use the products that come back to where they originate. “Instead of sending corn and soybeans away and not getting anything back, we want to reuse the products we |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 21, 2006 2:00 pm) I know that MTBE is being phased out as the favored oxygenate and ethanol is being used instead. I also know the Feds require some form of oxygenate be used. But I was under the impression that with current fuel management systems in todays cars and trucks (with O2 sensors in the exhaust) that oxygenates do NOTHING to reduce pollution? I found this regarding MTBE: "Oxygen helps gasoline burn more completely, reducing tailpipe emissions from pre-1984 motor vehicles. In more modern vehicles, the emissions reduction is negligible." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE So, is the claim that E10 reduces emissions because ethanol is an oxygenate, OR because the ethanol displaces gasoline and ethanol itself burns cleaner?
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Replying to: rorr (Jun 21, 2006 3:04 pm) Ethanol burns cleaner. The mandate uses the theory that MTBE needed replacing while in truth you have pointed out as has many other articles, modern engines do not need an oxygenate to burn clean. Of course there is still many scientists that question how clean is the process of growing corn and producing ethanol.
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Hype or fuel solution? from June 19th. http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060619/AUTO01/606190343/- - 1148/AUTO01 Rocky |
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http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060619/AUTO01/606190364/- 1148 Rocky |
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Then there is ethanol, the heavily subsidized energy produced from crops like corn, soybeans and sunflowers. Ethanol producers receive a 51-cent-a-gallon federal subsidy, which cost the government $1.4 billion last year, and are protected from international ethanol imports by a 2.5% tariff and an import duty of 54 cents a gallon. But it is not clear that ethanol is a good economic or energy bargain. Producing it requires diesel fuel for tractors to plant and harvest the corn and fertilizers, and pesticides to allow it to grow, so it takes about seven barrels of oil to produce eight barrels of corn-based ethanol. But then more truck or rail fuel is required to deliver it, since there are no pipelines from corn country to urban areas, making shipping ethanol about double the cost of shipping gasoline. In the end ethanol may be a more expensive fuel. Sen. Charles Schumer (D., N.Y.) says there is no policy reason for ethanol: "If the ethanol producers and the corn growers weren't benefiting from this, we wouldn't be doing it." WSJ opinion |
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Replying to: tpe (Jun 21, 2006 11:51 am) I agree that E85 is not ready for prime time, I've acknowledged this. Please note that I don't see E85 accomplishing much in the near- to medium-term unless production can be increased many times over, something that can't likely happen if corn is the primary biomass used to produce it. "I would expect hybrids over time to use their gas engines less and less, which will improve their fuel savings, and the batteries to improve, which should make them lighter and more efficient." How do you see this happening when you have already stated an opposition to plug-in hybrids? Without plug-in capability every mile driven in a hybrid, electric or ICE, was ultimately the result of burning fuel. As time evolves, I could see a dual system in which the battery is charged by either the motor or household current, but that was not the way to introduce the product. Take a look at Toyota's brilliant marketing of the Prius, and it's obvious that using old-school EV technology was not going to woo the innovators and tastemakers, and probably turn them off completely, so it was critical to avoid any overt connection to the past-its-prime EV concept. (For a technology to be disruptive, it has to be significantly different, so associating it with a past flop was the last thing you'd want to do from a marketing standpoint.) But as hybrids become more popular among mass consumers and have no doubt that they work, they will likely then become more accepting of the plug-in as an added benefit to something that they already like. It was important in the beginning to completely differentiate the hybrids from the EV cars of the past, but at that point, the hybrid should be on solid ground in the marketplace. |
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 21, 2006 10:25 pm) I've read about a company that will start manufacturing NiMH batteries capable of providing 30 miles all electric range. These batteries will cost $4,000 and weigh 350 lbs. but they say that the weight and cost should drop as they refine the manufacturing process. When you consider that the battery pack that now exists on a Prius weighs over 100 lbs and costs over $1000 the price and weight difference becomes less. For a driver that commutes relatively short distances every day the additional cost of this feature could be recouped in a few years worth of gas savings. Toyota has stated that they have no intention of pursuing this because there is no interest from the public. I don't know what this position is based on but I doubt that Toyota has actually polled their customers or done much market research.
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Hybrids (at least from Lexus) seem to be getting hotter and hotter every day. The Hybrid Lexus cars that provide no mileage benefit, do offer amazing feats of acceleration. The performance lover in me loves this concept. But I do wonder what this approach actually does toward decreasing our use of foreign oil (especially middle eastern oil.) Now the new $100,000 Lexus hot rod, hyper lux, hybrid is announced and while I laud its features and performance (and recognize at that price range its quantity of customers will be limited), I again wonder what purpose with respect to energy this has. In some way, I guess there is an implied oil reduction, for to achieve the accelerative performance that the 600h offers (for instance) it would surely take a whole bunch more oil fired horsepower and torque. Maybe the goal is to increase performance so that instead of measuring 0-60 in under 6 seconds, we can measure it in under 6 nano-seconds ("instant on?") Hybrids, perhaps, to have a chance at being successful need to focus on the LPS and HE market first -- emphasizing smooth but brute force performance. Of course, that definition of success really has little to do with reducing anyone's dependency on oil (foreign or domestic.) The Bosch link, I left above, suggests that diesel hybrids might be attractive because they do provide "the best of both worlds." Well, maybe. But even with a 15% adoption (which despite my personal enthusiasm still seems unlikely -- but possible) the impact is more like three steps forward and 2.5 steps backward. Oh well, I guess it will be spun to make that .5 step improvement seem huge. Zoom zoom indeed. I bet a hybrid luxobarge that can accelerate to 60mph in under 5 seconds would be a rush -- so I guess I'll just conclude with "don't knock it, until you've tried it" and hope someone wants me to try it. A $100,000 car is not the direction I want to go.  Trickle down, anyone? |
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Ethanol Cost on the Rise
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