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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 3:36 pm) When those here ask about real-world data for ethanol, do you honestly think they'll accept just a single highway-only test like that one? Real-World means actual driving. That's a mix of city, suburb, and highway. It must include all of the seasons too. I have 55,600 miles of data using E10 in my Prius. That's real-world. The diesel claims are empty, virtually nothing to actually support them. Talking about the lack of a plan. JOHN
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 4:14 pm) Er, how do you plan on doing that when I've already shown you that given current circumstances, we only have enough soybeans to produce 0.25% of current US diesel consumption? For your claim to be valid, some things would have to first happen: -Diesel demand would have to plummet through the floor, so that production becomes a relatively higher percentage of our total fuel needs. If we reduced our use of diesel by 99.75%, then we could use soybeans to become self-sufficient and use no more petroleum-diesel. -Some biomass better be found that can make up for the lack of soybeans, being that we don't have enough soybeans to make it happen. I'm going to repeat this number: 99.75%. That's a bit different from independence, isn't it?
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 18, 2006 4:32 pm) Is this what you mean? Here is a fellow like yourself that has a website devoted to his car a VW TDI. What makes my '98 Jetta special besides the engine?Although I'm a bit of a leadfoot and compete in SCCA events, my lifetime average economy over 204,000-miles is about 43-mpg. http://www.stealthtdi.com/ So when your Prius gets to 200k miles we can compare with a VW TDI for overall mileage.
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 18, 2006 4:38 pm) One car at a time! Are you doing your part to stick it to OPEC? There are many people and companies that give more than lip service to this goal. Kettle Chips is doing something without subsidies to cut down on our usage of fossil fuel. We use our cooking oil twice! The second time it powers several of our company cars in the form of biodiesel. Find out how we recycle our oils into an alternative fuel. http://www.kettlefoods.com/index.php?cID=227
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 4:50 pm) Remember? |
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Replying to: sls002 (Mar 28, 2006 11:11 am) Couldn't the govt give subsidies to GROW corn, vs NOT growing it. Wouldn't that make ethanol closer to being economically possible.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 3:22 pm) Sir, you have to build rational arguments. I talked about sugar beets before, but then I am not a farmer...was it 300 acres in Minnesota or 3 acres in CA that you tried to farm? You have stated both. Any renewable resource is a lot better than trying to destroy this country as the oil cartel is. I worked for the largest computer company in the world for 30 years and we all chuckled when the failing companies with no ideas always whined about how "we hurt them." Demagoguery is an old game. This not an anarchist/ socialist country and large companies like ADM, DC, GM, Ford and others survive very well in our democracy, the ups and downs of a corporation can be followed daily in the Wall Street Journal. I really do not care to respond to your comments. People here are trying to understand the facts of this debate. I try to quote responsible organizations, states, companies and legislative parties, not every blog on the internet. |
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Replying to: dwightex (Jun 18, 2006 5:12 pm) Couldn't the govt give subsidies to GROW corn, vs NOT growing it. Wouldn't that make ethanol closer to being economically possible Good thought...a positive statement. |
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Some lawmakers push sugar as source of ethanol FREDERIC J. FROMMER Associated Press WASHINGTON - With the market for corn-based ethanol booming, lawmakers from sugar-producing states like Minnesota and Florida are hoping that beet and cane growers can soon jump onto the renewable fuel bandwagon. They cite the model of Brazil, which produces ethanol made from sugar cane. But critics, pointing out that sugar is much cheaper in Brazil than in the United States, question whether the economics of sugar-based ethanol would work in this country. The U.S. Department of Agriculture is expected to issue a long-awaited study around July 1 on the viability of converting sugar into ethanol. Keith Collins, the USDA's chief economist, said that the soaring demand for ethanol and Brazil's successful track record make it worth discussing sugar-based ethanol here. "At some point in the future it may be worthy of commercial development," he said. "Technologically, it's possible. The question is: is it economically feasible?" Collins noted that besides cheaper sugar, Brazil has higher yields per acre because of better climate and investment in more-productive strains of sugar cane. "So, obviously, we can look at the technology of conversion, and learn some things from them about that," Collins said. "But it's a little hard for us just to look at Brazil and conclude that their structure of production would be our structure of production. We can't conclude that." Sugar in this country is made from two sources: beets in some northern and western states, and cane in a few southern states, including Hawaii. Minnesota is the largest producer of sugar produced from beets, while Florida leads in sugar from cane, according to the American Sugar Alliance, a trade group. There is skepticism among some sugar growers that ethanol is a viable end product for their crop. "If I was going to guess, I would say the economics are not going to be there," said Steve Williams, president of the American Sugar Beet Growers Association, who farms about 700 acres of sugar beets in Fisher, Minn. "The food value is better for sugar than for ethanol." But backers see room for growth in the ethanol area, especially if oil prices remain high. "It would be absurd in 10 years if we're doing 60 billion gallons of ethanol, and the only crop in America that's not participating is sugar," said Sen. Norm Coleman, a Minnesota Republican and one of Congress' leading champions of sugar-based ethanol. "What I'm saying is you gotta look beyond where you are today," he added. "We're moving into a period where ethanol is going to play a major part in cutting dependence on foreign oil." But not all Minnesota lawmakers agree that there is a future for sugar-based ethanol in the U.S. Rep. Collin Peterson, a Democrat whose Minnesota district includes many of the state's sugar beet growers, called the idea an "empty promise." Peterson, the ranking Democrat on the House Agriculture Committee, argued the Brazil model won't work in the U.S. due to the difference in sugar prices. Sen. Bill Nelson, a Florida Democrat, tried unsuccessfully last year to get the Senate to require refineries across the country to use 100 million gallons of sugar-based ethanol a year. "It's not going to happen unless there is a push from Congress with the incentives," Nelson said, short of a major disruption in the oil supply to the U.S. Coleman and Nelson are backing legislation sponsored by Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., that would encourage the use of renewable fuels, including the 100 million-gallon mandate for sugar-based ethanol. Jack Roney, an economist with the American Sugar Alliance, agreed that the government would need to step in to stimulate a sugar-to-ethanol industry. "It would take a combination of consumption mandates to ensure that the demand would be there, and conceivably some production incentives to use sugar ethanol," he said. "The way that the Brazilians established their program is through 30 years of government intervention in energy and agriculture markets, to ensure there would be adequate demand and supplies." Roney said his group is open to the idea of a sugar-to-ethanol industry, but would insist it not replace the U.S. sugar program, which guarantees minimum prices to cane and beet farmers and limits sugar imports. |
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Replying to: dwightex (Jun 18, 2006 5:12 pm) They are paying huge subsidies to grow corn and to make ethanol from the corn. That is why this debate is so heated. We are wasting tax dollars on a dead pony. Of course those that benefit in the Midwest are happy like those in the South with tobacco allotments. |
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