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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: seniorjose (Jun 18, 2006 8:24 am) NY is a CARB wannabe state. You say they allow the sale of diesel cars. That is interesting. You mind posting the dealers name. I have a list of folks that would love to buy a VW TDI and cannot find one. Ethanol and E85 are being rolled out big time So what do you consider big time? My understanding is we only have enough corn land to supply a maximum of 4% of our fuel needs. That is not enough to take care of the mandate using ethanol as an additive. If it is going to make a dent in our fossil fuel usage it will take more than emotional spin to get the job done. As for ADM producing biodiesel. At least it is a fuel with some useful attributes. If you read the energy bill you would know they threw in some money for biodiesel as well as ethanol. So ADM wants to get their lobbyist moneys worth on all fronts.
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 18, 2006 12:56 pm) I asked that a while back of our resident Ethanol salesman. I guess he is not allowed to talk about anything that takes away from the CORN industry. I believe he is a paid plant from the ADM lobby group. He keeps pasting only the stuff they pre-approve of. Such as misinformation about diesel cars and ethanol availability.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 3:03 pm) Let's take a look at that: -According to this 2005 article, US diesel consumption is about 55 billion gallons per year. Of that amount, 30 million gallons of it is biodiesel, meaning that about 0.05% of total diesel consumption in the US is of the bio variety. -Based upon a figure of roughly 320 million gallons per day, US consumption of gasoline is about 117 billion gallons per year. US ethanol consumption equals about 2.5% of that figure, meaning that ethanol production is roughly 2.95 billion gallons per year. Let's compare these two results. Using these figures, current ethanol production exceeds that of biodiesel by about 98 times. (Yes, that's 9800%). Now, note this quote from the article: If biodiesel replaced as few as 133 million gallons of petroleum diesel, supporters say, current surpluses of soybeans and soy oil would disappear. Do the math on this: This is saying that if biodiesel production increased to an amount equivalent to one-quarter of one percent of current demand (133 million/ 55 billion = 0.25%), it would eliminate the current soy surplus. Those are pretty stark numbers: that means that 99.75% of diesel demand would need to be met by petroleum products, based upon current demand and crop availability. Let's face it -- biodiesel faces very similar constraints as does corn-based ethanol in the US AND is even further behind the curve. Neither product is in a position to radically transform US consumption without significant increases in agricultural production, more efficient sources of biomass, and/or more efficient refining processes. The numbers speak for themselves.
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Replying to: john1701a (Jun 18, 2006 7:43 am) It was posted in the hybrids and diesel thread and you discounted it because you did not like the results. Same old issues. Yes the New Jetta TDI with DSG did better on mileage than the Prius. It figures, the Jetta is a superior car to the Prius on many levels. And a lot more fun to drive. Where is the Prius that runs on E85? Or any Toyota? What is your plan to get Toyota up to date. Don't they know your ethanol business is dying on the vine without any Toyota FFVs.
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 3:36 pm) Come now, I already posted an article from Edmunds that indicates that Toyota will have US-market FFV vehicles by 2008. To have an honest discussion, we should account for the data that has already been presented, assuming the sources are credible. Edmunds tends to be good at this stuff, so I have no reason to believe that Toyota doesn't intend to follow through. Again, you know that Toyota is not going to promote E85 today when it doesn't currently sell a car in the US that uses it. TMC will promote the product that it is selling, not what GM is selling.
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 18, 2006 3:23 pm) And what is your point? No one is asking anyone to use biodiesel. The thread is about Ethanol and more specifically E85 and the impact on our fuel economy. I would not be here posting if Ethanol was a grass roots industry as it has been for 30 years. It is the mandate that the ethanol industry cannot keep up with that has me concerned. What happens when you go to the gas station and they are out waiting for a shipment of corn squeezing's to add to the regular unleaded? I would pitch a big fit to my Senators if they had mandated that all diesel vehicles must use B20. You keep trying to turn the discussion into a biodiesel vs ethanol. They are for the most part unrelated. We are just coming out of the throes of the MTBE mandate, and Congress in their well subsidized tradition throw us the Ethanol mandate.
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 18, 2006 3:40 pm) If you follow the whole thread you will know that was in response to the exact same issue. The results of a cross country mileage run between the Jetta TDI and the Prius was already the topic of a long discussion on another thread. So I threw my question that has no answer in response. I found it interesting that the Toyota FFV article did not make any reference to making the hybrids FFVs. In fact TMC was very evasive about the whole subject. I believe they are in the same line of thinking that I have. Why bother with ethanol, it will take a big hit and die as it did 30 years ago, both here and Brazil. Some folks never learn. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Jun 18, 2006 3:48 pm) You might want to consider some of your earlier comments. #440: I have advocated diesel cars & smaller PU trucks using biodiesel going back at least 5 years. Biodiesel is a solution that does not need subsidies to be beneficial. I just posted data that given current conditions, biodiesel would at best provide for one-quarter of one percent of the US's current diesel consumption. So why do you continually make this claim of the product being "beneficial", when there is far less potential for it in its current form than for this other product that is already in wider distribution?
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Replying to: socala4 (Jun 18, 2006 4:02 pm) I am assuming you are talking about gasoline. The beauty of biodiesel is you can become totally independent of the oil industry. Ethanol in its current form cannot. There are many folks using B100 and not using any of OPEC's oil. I never said it would work for all of us. It is better than nothing and a solution to the problem for a few of the brighter folks in the country. For those that are happy with their gas cars, SUVs and trucks fine. Just give those of us that would like a True alternative the opportunity. Don't force anything down our tanks. What you drive is your decision. Just don't try to make my decision for me. Anyone that advocates a mandate such as the current ethanol mandate is trying to force their views onto the rest of us. Nothing you have posted has refuted my claim that biodiesel can be beneficial. As some here would say show me the data that biodiesel is a bad alternative to diesel. I have posted plenty of research that ethanol from CORN is detrimental to our environment.
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