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Hybrid Vehicles Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions Will ethanol E85 catch on in the US? Will we Live Green and Go Yellow? 
2104 messages, Last post on Oct 27, 2006 at 5:34 AM
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 28, 2006 9:11 am) Further more, corn is an extremely earth friendly crop. It produces food for the masses, livestock and can create renewable resources, fuels, packing materials, byproducts and other products we use in our daily lives. I have no idea where you get the idea it is an earth unfriendly crop - perhaps you need to visit the midwest before putting down a very important resource we can produce right here in our own country.
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Replying to: mconsbruck (Mar 28, 2006 12:39 pm) I happen to own a farm in MN. I know exactly how much chemical is required per acre to get a decent crop of corn. I know how many years of Alfalfa has to be grown on the land before I can grow another crop of corn. Corn requires more chemicals than most other crops. These are chemicals that leech through the soil into the water table. These are some of the reasons I let my farm go to natural pasture. It is not good for the environment. It is not cheaper than unleaded when you consider we are adding a dollar or more to each gallon by way of subsidy. How do you get it out of the midwest to market? In Massachusetts, an estimated 250,000 flexible-fuel vehicles stand ready to run on E85 as easily as gasoline without mechanical adjustment. Yet because New England has no ethanol production facilities, transporting E85 from the nearest producer in South Bend, Ind., was cost-prohibitive until gas prices reached the $2.50 per gallon range. Still, unless the Commonwealth is persuaded to subsidize an ethanol infrastructure, fuel specialists say, pumps stocked with E85 are unlikely to spring up here. Chief among the skeptics is Cornell University ecologist David Pimentel. In analyzing how much fossil fuel and other energy goes into planting, fertilizing, harvesting, and then converting corn into a liquid fuel, he concluded in a 2005 paper that the process isn't economically or environmentally advantageous. ''Actually, we're contributing to global warming [by using E85] because it takes more energy to make a gallon of ethanol than you get out of that gallon," Pimentel said. E85 |
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Mar 28, 2006 11:09 am) How far just outside Chicago are you; I've probably been there. |
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Replying to: jae5 (Mar 28, 2006 1:28 pm) I know there is a station just North of Wrigley field on Clark that sells E-85. A lot of the burbs have one. Most places I have seen that sell it is Gas City. I will be going by one place later on and I will check the prices.
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First, if you're paying more for E-85 than regular, you're being ripped off. Second, the Cornell energy balance scenario is a.) wrong b.) assumes that the sun doesn't count c.) ignores the fact that we run on a liquid fuel economy (i.e. coal has a MUCH higher balance than regular gas but I don't think we're going back to steam powered cars). So, what does E-85 have going for it? 1.)Sunsidize a farmer instead of a terrorist or several other groups of people that would rather you just die. 2.)It IS cheaper per gallon if your local station doesn't rip you off. It SHOULD run about 25-33% cheaper. 3.) Higher octane means more horsepower. What needs to be done? 1.) Auto manuafacturers need to designs vehicles that capture the HP boost via turbos, ignition changes, etc. AND change the gearing in the drivetrain to boost the mileage while keeping the drag-racing performance equivalent to the regular vehicles. The Bio-Saab did all of this EXCEPT the gearing change so the fuel economy is still less. 2.) More stations need to be made available. 3.) Bio-mass conversion to ethanol needs to be put into production. I hope nobody feels flamed, just wanted to add some food for thought and dispel some irritating myths. Oh, one more thing, to commercially produce ethanol under today's technology costs $1.30-1.80/gallon while bio-diesel (to spec) costs about $2.70-3.10/gallon. So yes, the last too years, ethanol plants could have stood alone without government subsidies but the spring of '05 would have been rough with ethanol trading in the $1.05/gallon range. Cheers, Boiler |
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Replying to: boilermaker2 (Mar 28, 2006 2:33 pm) It would be cheaper but not by that much, factor in the loss of mileage it becomes more costly to run your car on E-85 3.) Higher octane means more horsepower. No it doesn't just wanted to add some food for thought and dispel some irritating myths. Just how do you dispel irritating myths by putting out more irritating myths? |
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I used ethanol in my car for 20 years (4 different cars), not E85 but 100% ethanol. Ethanol consumption is not 25% higher but about 10 to 15%(my personal experience). Engine power is increased, but very slightly (less than 5%) so you hardly notice the difference. I agree that the main factors for ethanol adoption would be the economics and availability. Here the wrong assumption is that prices will be stable in the next future. Prices are not frozen and I think the only guarantee is that they will change. How much? You would need a crystal ball. But nobody expects that oil will be cheaper in the future, the trend is only to increase. There will be a price level that will make ethanol attractive. Wrong assumption: ethanol production does not depend on just corn. There are several different ways to "grow" ethanol. It can be extracted from corn, sugar cane, beets and other cultures. Each one gives a different cost. The price of these commodities depend on supply and demand, that's why prices are always changing. Besides prices also affect production. The higher the price more area is dedicated to that culture. Oil does not offer this choice. There is a ceiling on the production level and the world is very close to this ceiling, with comsuption increasing, the price tend to go higher. Regarding availability, it is also an economic issue. It is not difficult for the gas stations to offer ethanol. If there is demand and oportunity to make profit on selling ethanol, I am sure they will start offering it. There is also the political issue on whether government will subsidize ethanol or impose more taxes on gasoline which would affect the balance between both.
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Replying to: jae5 (Mar 28, 2006 1:28 pm)
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Replying to: clovmo (Mar 28, 2006 4:06 pm) Better let the EPA know, their tests show anywhere from 20 to 30+ percent less fuel economy. I had a car that could use E-85 and my MPG with E-85 was a little more than 70% of what I got with gas.
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Mar 28, 2006 4:46 pm) |
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