Forums
>Automotive News & Views >Automotive News & Views-Archives >Has CAFE reached the end of its usefulness?Read Only
You have saved this page | See all saved pages
Has CAFE reached the end of its usefulness? - READ ONLY
560 messages, Last post on Dec 08, 2012 at 3:14 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views-Archives Forum.What is this discussion about? Fuel Efficiency (MPG)
#531 of 560 Re: CAFE credits [benjaminh] by steve_ HOST
Jul 28, 2011 (12:42 pm)
Replying to: benjaminh (Jul 28, 2011 12:18 pm)
We're reading - just hard to add anything to your research. 
#532 of 560 1974 Honda Civic by benjaminh
Jul 28, 2011 (12:52 pm)
glad someone's reading. Hope you'll chime in...It's unbelievable how small the original Civic was. A contemporary high tech 2 cylinder engine put into that car would have more power than the 4 cylinder 1.2 liter engine that it had. But obviously with modern safety requirements and supersized Americans you are never going to sell a car as small as this again in large numbers. Just look at these stats:
Honda Civic 1974 specs
Engine and transmission
Engine location: Front, transverse
Displacement: 1169 ccm (71.33 cubic inches)
Engine type: Inline, 4 cylinder
Max power: 54.00 PS (40 kW or 53 HP) at 5000 Rev. per min.
Max torque: 79.00 Nm (8.1 kgf-m or 58.3 ft.lbs) at 3500 Rev. per min.
Fuel system: Carburetor
Speed and acceleration
Power/weight ratio: 0.0800 PS/kg
Exterior and interior
Max no. of doors: 3
Passenger space: 3310 liters (875 gallons)
Steering, brakes and tires
Turn circle: 10 m (385.8 inches)
Front brakes: Disks
Rear brakes: Drums
Dimensions and weight
Weight: 675 kg (1,488.1 pounds)
Overall length: 3570 mm (140.6 inches)
Overall width: 1510 mm (59.4 inches)
Overall height: 1340 mm (52.8 inches)
Wheelbase: 2210 mm (87.0 inches)
#533 of 560 1974 Civic 0-60 by benjaminh
Jul 28, 2011 (12:54 pm)
1974 Honda Civic 0-60 mph 15.5 Quarter mile 18.2http://www.zeroto60times.com/Honda-Vtech-0-60-mph-Times.html
That's a bit slow for modern tastes, to say the least. What a slug.
#534 of 560 1980 Honda Civic stats by benjaminh
Jul 28, 2011 (1:10 pm)
Something just a bit bigger than a 1980 Civic might be possible to sell today....But with modern safety gear, even a car this size is probably going to weigh more than 2000 pounds, even with high strength light weight steel. By the time you get past 2000 pounds, there's no way anything less than 3 cylinders will work it seems like...With the 1.5 liter engine it went from 0-60 in 11 seconds:
1980 Honda Civic 1500GL 0-60 mph 11.1 Quarter mile 17.9
http://www.motorsdb.com/honda/honda-civic-1980-images-specs.htm
Honda Civic 1980 specs
Engine and transmission
Engine location: Front, transverse
Displacement: 1335 ccm (81.46 cubic inches)
Engine type: Inline, 4 cylinder
Max power: 60.00 PS (44 kW or 59 HP) at 5000 Rev. per min.
Max torque: 93.00 Nm (9.5 kgf-m or 68.6 ft.lbs) at 3500 Rev. per min.
Compression: 8.4:1
Bore x stroke: 72.0 x 82.0 mm (2.8 x 3.2 inches)
Fuel system: Carburetor
Valves per cylinder: 3
Cooling system: Liquid
Gearbox: Manual, 5-speed
Speed and acceleration
Power/weight ratio: 0.0764 PS/kg
Exterior and interior
Max no. of doors: 5
Passenger space: 3660 liters (967 gallons)
Aerodynamic dragcoefisient: 0.5
Steering, brakes and tires
Front tire dimensions: 155/80-R12
Rear tire dimensions: 155/80-R12
Dimensions and weight
Weight: 785 kg (1,730.6 pounds)
Overall length: 3770 mm (148.4 inches)
Overall width: 1590 mm (62.6 inches)
Overall height: 1340 mm (52.8 inches)
Wheelbase: 2330 mm (91.7 inches)
Fuel capacity: 40.0 liters (10.57 gallons)
#535 of 560 history of the Civic by benjaminh
Jul 28, 2011 (1:15 pm)
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/history.htmlI still think the first 20 years of this car might have something to teach us about how to reach CAFE targets for 2025.
#536 of 560 1984 Civic Hatchback by benjaminh
Jul 28, 2011 (3:12 pm)
Put a 1 liter 3 cylinder turbo engine in the modern version of this car, and it should not only get great gas mileage but be fun to drive. 0-60 in 7 seconds?? 45 mpg without a hybrid?? somethin like that...1984 Honda Civic 1.5i Hatchback Specifications
Make: Honda
Model: Civic 1.5i Hatchback
Year: 1984
Category: Small / Economy Cars
Engine: 1488 ccm (90,35 cubic inches)
Engine position: Front
Engine type: in-line, 4-cyl
Valves per cylinder:
Maximum power: 102.1 PS (74,63 kW or 100,50 HP) at 574,630 Rev. per min.
Maximum torque: 130.00 Nm (13,23 kgf-m or 95,42 ft.lbs) at 4500 Rev. per min.
Bore Stroke: 74.0 x 86.5 mm (2,89 x 3.4 inches)
Compression: 9.0:1
Top speed: 182.0 km/h (112,53 mph)
Fuel type:
Transmission type: Manual, 5-speed
Power per weight: 0.1198 PS/kg
0 to 100km/h (0 to 62mph):
Drivetrain: Front
Number of seats: 5
Passenger space: 4140 litres (1088,53 gallons)
Number of doors: 3
Country of origin: Japan
Front tires: 175/70-R13
Rear tires: 175/70-R13
Chassis: Hatchback
CO2 emissions:
Turn circle length:
Weight: 855 kg (1875,58 pounds)
Towing weight:
Total length: 3810 mm (149,25 inches)
Total width: 1640 mm (64,28 inches)
Total height: 1350 mm (52,83 inches)
Maximum weigth with load:
Ground clearance:
Wheelbase: 2390 mm (93,63 inches)
Cooling: Liquid
Brakes type (front): Disks
Brakes type (rear): Drums
Cargo space:
Lubrication:
Leg room:
Aerodynamic drag coefficient:
Fuel efficiency (highway):
Fuel efficiency (mixed):
Fuel efficiency (city):
Fuel tank capacity: 38.0 litres (9,99 gallons)
For comparison some stats on the 2011 Mini Cooper:
Width: 66.3 in.
Height: 55.4 in.
Length: 146.6 in.
Front track: 57.4 in.
Rear track: 57.8 in.
Wheel base: 97.1 in.
Cargo capacity, all seats in place: 5.7 cu.ft.
Maximum cargo capacity: 24.0 cu.ft.
EPA interior volume: 82.0 cu.ft.
Gross weight: 0.33 in.
Curb weight: 2535 lbs.
#537 of 560 1984 Civic Wagon stats vs 2011 Honda Fit by benjaminh
Jul 29, 2011 (11:51 am)
The 2011 Fit is a bit larger than the 1984 Civic Wagon. This shows 27 years of progress, in a way, because although the 2011 Fit is a bit larger, ways 400 pounds more, has a much more powerful engine, and is a lot safer, it gets slighter higher mpg than a Civic from that time. But really the cars are quite similar.The current EPA rating on the Fit, however, at 29 mpg combined while good should be better.
1984 Wagon specs:
Engine:
1488cc 12-valve
76 HP
6000 RPM 83.9 lb-ft
3500 RPM Aluminum block and head
Suspension:
Front - Torsion bars with struts
Rear - Trailing link with beam-type axle
Sway/anti-roll/stabilizer bars on both ends, rear bar was inside beam axle.
Dimensions:
Wheelbase - 96.5"
Length - 157.1"
Width - 63.9"
Height - 58.3
Curb weight - 2015 lbs (manual transmission)
Measurements
Width: 66.7 in.
Height: 60.0 in.
Length: 161.6 in.
Front track: 58.7 in.
Rear track: 58.1 in.
Wheel base: 98.4 in.
Cargo capacity, all seats in place: 20.6 cu.ft.
Maximum cargo capacity: 57.3 cu.ft.
EPA interior volume: 111.4 cu.ft.
Curb weight: 2489 lbs.
Mechanical
Engine & Performance
Base engine size: 1.5 L
Cam type: Single overhead cam (SOHC)
Cylinders: inline 4
Valves: 16
Valve timing: Variable
Torque: 106 ft-lbs.
4800 rpm Horsepower: 117 hp
6600 rpm Turning circle: 34.4 ft.
#538 of 560 article by Wards Auto by benjaminh
Jul 29, 2011 (5:50 pm)
Obama Makes 54.5 MPG Rule Official; Engineers, Designers WaryBy James M. Amend
WardsAuto.com, Jul 29, 2011 2:30 PM Email a link to this articleEmail a link to this article Printer-friendly version of this articlePrinter-friendly version of this article
The Obama Admin. today releases a new corporate average fuel economy rule of 54.5 mpg (4.3 L/100 km) by 2025, and while auto executives support the target, skepticism exists among the rank-and-file tasked with meeting the bogey.
United Auto Workers President Bob King says today’s announcement demonstrates the White House’s willingness to listen to auto makers.
ADVERTISEMENT
“No industry is doing more on these issues,” King says in a statement ahead of the final rules, noting investment to meet future CAFE already has begun.
“There is business opportunity in meeting consumer demand for relief at the pump.” General Motors CEO Dan Akerson gave an important thumbs-up for the new mandate earlier this week during kickoff ceremonies for the 2011 UAW contract negotiations in Detroit.
“We support our societal goals of fuel efficiency and a reduced carbon footprint,” Akerson told journalists.
The auto maker adds today that the new rules “provide regulatory certainty” for the industry.
Akerson and King are among 250 industry executives, environmental leaders, lawmakers and regulators joining Obama for the announcement at the Washington Convention Center, site of the annual Washington auto show.
“We’ve set an aggressive target and the companies are stepping up to the plate,” Obama says. “By 2025, the average fuel economy of their vehicles will nearly double.”
Obama calls 2025 CAFE rules “something lasting for our country.”
The rules step up beginning in 2017 and equate to a carbon-dioxide emissions level in 2025 of 163 grams per mile, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists.
Auto maker fleets currently are marching to a 2016 CAFE requirement of 35.5 mpg (6.6 L/100 km) by 2016, a target estabished in 2009.
The new standard equals an increase in auto maker fleet fuel efficiency of 5% annually for passenger cars and 3.5% annually for light trucks in the first five years and by 5% every four years after until 2025.
Regulators say the slower phase-in for trucks, for which auto makers reportedly lobbied aggressively, accounts for some “unique challenges.”
Auto makers also won a “mid-term” evaluation of the rules to examine their progress. In addition, California will adhere to the national rule.
The state has threatened to break away from the federal regulations to implement stricter rules within its boundaries.
The National High Traffic Safety Admin. and Environmental Protection Agency will continue working on a joint rule-making and release a final proposal for public comment by the end of September.
Related Stories
Auto Makers Enter New Round of CAFE Talks Healthier, Better Armed
Upside of Downsizing Beginning to Emerge in North America
EPA Data Shows U.S. Fuel Economy, Vehicle Emissions Improving
Industry executives may outwardly support the 2025 rules, but a Ward’s survey scheduled for detailed release Tuesday shows 1,100 rank-and-file engineers and designers currently working at auto makers and suppliers expressing serious doubt over meeting the targets without hurting vehicle safety, size and cost.
Disputing claims by environmental groups, only one in four automotive engineers and designers agreed that Obama Administration’s originally proposed fleet average of 56.2 mpg (4.1 L/100 km) by 2025 could be met with currently available technologies.
Less than one of 10 respondents thought new fuel economy rules were being drafted with the idea of accommodating future safety rules, which will mandate significantly better crashworthiness and likely add weight to future vehicles.
“It is a MAJOR STRETCH, regardless of what the Union of Concerned Scientists says,” one engineer writes in a survey response.
A whopping 77% of respondents agreed that the 56.2 mpg bogey “will fundamentally change how vehicles are manufactured in the U.S.”
Ward’s latest monthly analysis of consumer purchases shows more buyers picking cars, trucks and cross/utility vehicles with greater fuel efficiency.
In the first half of 2011, sales of vehicles achieving between 25 mpg and 30 mpg (9.4-7.8 L/100 km) rose 4% over the same period last year. Sales of vehicles getting greater than 30 mpg are up 22.4% vs. like-2010.
Sales of vehicles averaging 15 mpg (15.7 L/100 km) fell 11.2% and those achieving between 15 mpg and 20 mpg (11.8 L/100 km) declined 3.8% Sales of vehicles averaging between 20 mpg and 25 mpg fell 0.4%.
The UCS estimates the 2025 CAFE rules will save 1.5 million barrels of oil per day, or about 23 billion gallons (87.1 billion L) of gasoline annually by 2030 and trim CO2 emissions 280 million tons (254 million tonnes).
The group expects consumer to save $50 million at the pump in 2030, after adjusting for technology costs.
The final rules for 2025 also likely will include incentives for auto makers to make advanced technology vehicles such as hybrids and electric vehicles, including special treatments for trucks, on top of encouraging use of more environmentally friendly air-conditioning refrigerants.
Auto makers also could receive incentives for the use of compressed natural gas and could trade credits for emissions savings or carry forward unused credits from the 2016 rules as far as 2021.
During his remarks, Obama singles out GM, Ford and Chrysler for their progress since two of three auto makers went through bankruptcy in 2009. He also touts the industry’s cooperation on the new CAFE rules as an example to lawmakers locked in a partisan struggle over raising the debt ceiling of “doing something lasting for this country.”
– with Drew Winter
#539 of 560 So it's 62 mpg for cars and 44 for SUVs/Trucks by benjaminh
Jul 29, 2011 (6:02 pm)
Those two averaged make for the 54 CAFE.President, automakers hail new fuel efficiency pact
David Shepardson/ Detroit News Washington Bureau
Washington — President Barack Obama today hailed a deal to boost fuel efficiency standards to 54.5 mpg, saying it will save consumers $1.7 trillion over the lifetime of vehicles and doubling current requirements.
In announcing the pact, Obama was joined by 13 automakers, including representatives of Detroit's Big Three automakers, Toyota Motor Corp., BMW AG, Honda Motor Co., Nissan Motor Co. and Hyundai Motor Co.
"This agreement on fuel standards represents the single most important step we've ever taken as a nation to reduce our dependence on foreign oil," the president said. "Most of the companies here today were part of an agreement we reached two years ago to raise the fuel efficiency of their cars over the next five years. We've set an aggressive target and the companies are stepping up to the plate."
On a conference call with reporters, administration officials said cars would have to average 62 mpg by 2025 and light trucks would average 44 mpg. The agreement gives hefty incentives to full-size pickup trucks to become mild or full hybrids, along with incentives for fuel cell vehicles and electric vehicles. But it doesn't offer any new incentives for diesel vehicles — much to the dismay of European automakers.
But despite repeated questioning, the administration offered no estimate on the costs or impact on jobs or auto sales. Previously, the administration said slightly more aggressive requirements could cost $2,100 or more per vehicle by 2025.
"We are confident that the automobile manufacturers will be able to absorb the additional costs and still sell cars for a profit," said Ron Bloom, a senior White House adviser who helped broker the deal. He added the deal would not "compromise in safety."
The White House said the deal will save consumers more than $8,000 per vehicle by 2025. It will save an estimated 12 billion barrels of oil.
Margo Oge, director of the EPA's office of transportation and air quality, said in an interview that the higher costs would be "pretty reasonable."
She said the administration struck a good deal — and denied they had given automakers too many "credits" to meet the standards — including letting automaker "multiply" the impact of the most expensive technologies on meeting standards for the first five years. "These are incentives to incorporate advanced technologies in pickup trucks," Oge said. Without incentives, "you aren't going to see" hybrids and other expensive technologies on pickups trucks. "They are not giveaways, they are real."
But the proposal will have unintended consequences. The American Road & Transportation Builders Association says the proposal will result in the loss of $65 billion in federal funding for state and local highway, bridge and transit improvements because of less gas tax revenue collected.
Before the announcement, automakers formally signed off on a framework deal, after working out the last hurdles.
General Motors Co., Chrysler Group LLC, and Ford Motor Co. signed memorandums of understanding on the 2017-2025 fuel efficiency standards, as have the other 11 companies in attendance.
GM CEO Dan Akerson told The Detroit News his company can live with the compromise deal.
The talks with automakers, California and the White House went past 1 a.m. this morning. They centered around assurances that California will abide by the results of a mid-term review that is intended to ensure that the 2022-2025 requirements are achievable.
The final issue dealt gave automakers the opportunity to sue if California attempts to enact its own tougher rules, if the federal government opts to lower the requirements in the final years.
California Gov. Jerry Brown, a Democrat, hailed the agreement as a "banner day" and said the state deserved credit for pushing. "The auto companies have finally come onboard and the innovative rule for California was crucial," Brown told reporters on a conference call. "We have a workable formula that every year will make our vehicles more efficient."
Hyundai U.S. chief John Krafcik said the deal was historic and actually works out to 60 mpg for Hyundai vehicles by 2025 because of the mix of mostly passenger cars.
"It shows that we can work together," Krafcik said.
The deal will "right-size the fleet. There are going to be fewer vehicles that are bought for the occasional need to carry nine people or seven people."
Toyota Motor USA sales President Jim Lentz said the agreement "was the right thing to do" and said the company wasn't put at a disadvantage.
Toyota and other automakers "need to roll up our sleeves and start figuring out exactly how we're going to meet all these standards and what's in it for the customers."
The Detroit News obtained a two-page letter Akerson sent to Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and EPA Administration Lisa Jackson outlining the deal. GM "reserves all rights to contest final actions" by EPA, NHTSA and California. GM "may not have full knowledge about the evolution and cost of technologies necessary to meet these standards, particularly in 2022-2025, the mid-term evaluation provides a basis... for adoption of standards for model years that far into the future."
About 10 United Auto Workers workers were present, plus many members of Congress, including U.S. Reps. John Dingell, D-Dearborn; Gary Peters, D-Bloomfield Township; House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., and Ed Markey, D-Mass. Former Gov. Jennifer Granholm also attended. "This is pretty thrilling," Pelosi said, adding it was critical that "the industry and the administration came together."
UAW President Bob King said Obama deserves credit for bringing all the parties together.
"The Obama administration listened to business, environmental and labor stakeholders. With the president's leadership, compromises were reached that show how to make real progress on important issues," he said.
King and Ford CEO Alan Mulally flew to the event together on a company plane; the two are scheduled back in Michigan this afternoon for the traditional handshake marking the start of contract talks between Ford and the UAW.
From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110729/AUTO01/107290411/President--automakers-hail-- new-fuel-efficiency-pact#ixzz1TXulVrtJ
#540 of 560 the review of 2017 by benjaminh
Jul 29, 2011 (6:13 pm)
That's not entirely clear to me. Who exactly does that, what are their parameters, and how do they decide?It looks, however, like the CAFE goals up to 2021 are maybe pretty much fixed. If I'm understanding it correctly, the review of 2017 would only analyze how realistic the CAFE #s are for the last 4 years: 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025. And so even if that review waters things down, it looks like we'll still get the very significant progress up to 2021.
5% a year is very rapid progress. Those engineers are going to be very busy. They are already very busy. We've already seen some significant progress in mpg. Who would have thought that a car the size of the Elantra would get 40 mpg hwy.
Advertisement
Most Popular in Forums
Search Forums
Enter Keyword(s):
Learn More, Do More
Edmunds Community
Advertisement