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Luxury Performance Sedans
10339 messages, Last post on May 30, 2013 at 3:26 PM
You are in the BMW 5-Series Forum.- Your Hosts are Kirstie@Edmunds & Karen@Edmunds
What is this discussion about? Lexus GS 430, Acura RL, BMW 5 Series, Volvo S80, Audi A6, Infiniti M35, Infiniti M45, Mercedes-Benz E-Class, Cadillac STS, Sedan
#41 of 10339 by mariner7
May 07, 2004 (5:10 am)
"The RL will probably win the 6-cylinder contest on price/power/performance."I think it will be hard for RL to come close to new M35. Reason: G has the better chassis than TL. Yes, Acura fans may argue over that, but for most people there's little argument over this. RL probably will have pretty much the same chassis as TL, with fwd. From AW review, looks like M chassis is significantly improved from G.
Another reason TL and RL are close in ability: they're introduced one year apart. Whereas Z/G were introduced 3, 4 years ago, now it's time for a much improved platform from Nissan.
#43 of 10339 mariner7, merc1 by saugatak
May 07, 2004 (2:25 pm)
just went back and read that article from the link you posted.wow, if nissan has already improved the FM platform that much, the new M45 might be a 5-series killer.
and once they make the next generation G35 off of the improved FM platform, we might have a true 3-series killer on our hands.
you gotta love the competition.
now if honda would only make a RWD platform, sigh.
#44 of 10339 by pg48477
May 08, 2004 (2:21 pm)
Honda does not need a RWD platform, if new AWD system is 75% of what thay say it is, it should be equal or better than any RWD including M and 5. If Acura can build FWD (TL) which can perform almost as good as RWD G and 3, they can sertanly build an AWD (RL) that would performs as good or better than RWD M and 5. There is no doubt in my mind that Honda/Acura is capable of building great handling AWD, we'll just have to wait and see.#45 of 10339 saugatak, merc by lexusguy
May 11, 2004 (10:37 am)
If Honda needed RWD, Nissan and Toyota would not be putting AWD in their RL competition. You have to realize there is a rather large portion of North America that given the choice, would go AWD over RWD in a heartbeat. Hell they are even willing to drive crap like the Deville just for the winter traction. As I've said before, RWD is not the end all be all performance killer and everything else can go home. Take a 330i, and a Lancer Evolution out on a track. Guess which one is going to pull the fastest lap times. Its not the BMW. And no, the Evo would NOT be faster if it lost the weight of AWD. It needs that traction to be able to take the hairpins that the BMW would have to hit the brakes for. Do you know that Audi was banned from using Quattro in races because it was an unfair advantage?Merc, mostly agreed there. I dont think the CTS should win out over an E320. It's "bargain" price is only half the story, leasing a E class would probably be cheaper considering how horrid Cadillac residual value is. I'm not impressed with the 5 series whatsoever. I liked the old 5 series. While I wouldnt buy one for myself, the old 540i was a fun car to take for a spin. The new car is not. C&D also slammed the 6 series in a recent comparo against a CLK55. I definitely agree though that R&T gives Jaguar more credit than they should. The XK8 shouldnt be beating ANYTHING, and I drive an XKR! This car is not just outdated, its ancient. Its underpinnings date back 30 years to the first XJS. I would've traded my '98 XK for an SL500 over my '00 XKR in a second if it wasnt for the fact that used SLs are still actually worth money. The S Type also is one of the weakest cars in the segment. In a C&D comparo, it came in like 9th or 10th place, just above a Lincoln LS (shocker there). I believe an XJ8 has also beaten the A8L in R&T, unless I'm mistaken. I generally dont like R&T that much. Sometimes there comparos are based purely on performance, with price and luxury as completely unimportant, and sometimes on supposed "value" as with this CTS winner. Which is it? I think C&D, though they are certainly not perfect, is at least more consistent.
#46 of 10339 lexusguy by merc1
May 11, 2004 (9:52 pm)
Interesting points especially since you own a Jaguar. Road and Track definitely likes Jaguars.Road and Track has somewhat of a history of far-out comparos. I don't think anyone looking at a E320 is going to buy a CTS and vice versa. One is clearly a sports sedan and the other is much more of a luxury car. I hardly think anyone looking the 300 is going to buy an 530i either. These cars are really all over the map, which is exactly the reason they picked this group I guess.
Road and Track I think likes to stir things up a little bit every now and then. Remember in 1990 the LS400 did not make their 10 Best Cars in the World list. That had everyone talking.
M
#47 of 10339 R&T by riez
May 12, 2004 (5:20 am)
merc1... I've subscribed to R&T for almost 25 years and been reading it for over 30 years. Don't remember anyone really talking about the LS400 not making a 10-best list in 1990. R&T tends to focus on sports cars, roadsters, high performance cars, etc. The LS400 was and still is a pretty sedate sedan. Very well built and offering a lot for the money, but nothing too sporty or high performance about it. Heck, Lexus doesn't even offer a Sport Pkg!R&T likes all different cars. They've liked Jags going back to the XK-120 and earlier. Jag is a truly historic marque for R&T, having built a ton of great cars (e.g., the E-type).
#48 of 10339 by merc1
May 12, 2004 (5:32 am)
Yikes thats a long time...I've only been reading them since 1986. I remember the press talking about how they didn't put the LS400 on their 10 Best list back in 1990. No big deal to me either, but I do remember other magazines and certain tv programs mentioning it like it was some big mistake or omission.M
#49 of 10339 by lexusguy
May 12, 2004 (11:08 am)
I dont really remember it, though I was reading C&D at the time. That's kind of the reason I dont like Motortrend, instead of a 10 best list, they have "xx of the year" which is quite often NOT the best car in its respective segment, but something that is "most significant" or just grabs a lot of media hype for a short moment, and then drops off the map. The new Thunderbird got car of the year. The SSR I'm sure will get truck of the year, and most likely it will go the road Prowler and Thunderbird as an expensive, underperforming thing that is sold purely on being "different".Whether or not the LS400 deserved to be on a list of 10 best is arguable, but it was a very significant car, and probably got MT's import car of the year (back when they used to have that). I do remember M-B acting rather nonchalantly in those days about the presence of Lexus in the market, that they could never hope to hold a candle to M-B. Wrong.
#50 of 10339 by merc1
May 12, 2004 (9:42 pm)
There has been a lot written and said about MB's position on Toyota entering the luxury car market.Some say that Mercedes-Benz was scared to death and thus responded just 2 years later with their first-ever V8 powered E-Class, the 400E. They did respond a year before BMW did with their V8 powered 540i. Neither BMW or Mercedes was in a position to offer their full size cars with a V8 at LS400 prices. The 300SE of the day was a 52K car! Ditto for the 735i. Mercedes was however the only V8 game in town prior to Lexus with their 420 and 560SEL models, but the 560SEL in particular was twice the base price of a LS400 in 1990! Even more shocking was the LS400 sticker within a few hundred dollars of a 190E 2.6! Imagine a LS430's base price being that of a C320 today! The Germans clearly were doing whatever they pleased with the market.
Other say Mercedes laughed at the thought of Toyota doing a luxury car. I don't buy this theory now because they changed the course (pricing) of their cars dramatically from 1990-1994. For the first time ever Mercedes actually lowered prices in 1994. This was unheard of from a German luxury car maker who regularly priced their cars however they please. Reality check.
Either way the luxury car biz was forever changed. BMW had to do a V8 for the first time in years. Mercedes had to lower prices and they temporarily ran up market with the bigger and pricer than everything 1992 S-Class, with mixed results depending on who you ask. Jaguar would not be here post Lexus if it weren't for Ford. They were just like BMW, a I6 and V12 shop only. Funny thing is Acura did the same thing in 1986 and the Euros didn't even blink. Pretty fascinating when you look back at it all.
M
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