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Lincoln Zephyr, Lincoln MKS, Lincoln MKX
#3369 of 4409 Re: truly new start? [akirby]
Aug 28, 2011 (11:19 am)
True, Allen, the CTS is the best Cadillac. It comes in sedan, coupe and wagon versions, and one can get a V version (550 hp) if one wishes, in any one of them. The SRX, however, should not be dismissed. They got it right this time, and in 2012, they now have a competitive engine for it as well. It is selling neck and neck with the Lexus. The MKX did NOT come out right, and when they are comparably equipped, there is little actual difference in SRX and MKX prices. The SRX is a success. The MKX not so much.
Lincoln's new models are coming, but Cadillac will have some out first. The ATS (rear drive) will compete with the BMW 1 and 3 series. The XTS will replace the DTS next year, and it seems to out-do the MKS in terms of styling and room. They will have at least as many new models as Lincoln either at the same time or before Lincoln's intros. I wish Lincoln well, but the company made so many bone-head decisions in the past 10 years trying several different ways to re-make Lincoln that there is a lot of damage done. To come back, Lincoln will not only have to steal sales from Cadillac, but also makes like Audi, BMW, Lexus, and Mercedes...no easy task even with good product.
#3370 of 4409 Re: truly new start? [akirby]
Aug 28, 2011 (12:48 pm)
Styling is a subjective thing. I would sooner base my decision on purchasing a car based on what makes it a better engineered vehicle than a lesser price vehicle. That does not mean using a cheaper car's platform as a base and it certainly doesn't mean options or gizmos that will eventually become standard on cheaper cars.
#3371 of 4409 Re: truly new start? [gregg_vw]
Aug 28, 2011 (1:10 pm)
The XTS of Cadillac is based on the front wheel drive Epsilon Buick platform. Cadillac has again started its large rear wheel drive platform project.
Aug 28, 2011 (3:45 pm)
The SRX is both smaller and cheaper than the MKX - that's why it sells. I agree it's a nice vehicle but it's based on a cheaper platform so according to edward53 it's not a true luxury vehicle.
The current Ford mgt wasn't here 10 years ago so those decisions aren't applicable.
But I might as well be talking to a brick wall. Guess we'll have to wait and see what the landscape looks like in 2-3 years. But I think Lincoln will surprise you and will challenge Lexus for the luxury sales lead.
#3374 of 4409 Re: Whatever [akirby]
Aug 28, 2011 (7:22 pm)
Lincoln has an image of being expensive Fords. That image is why it will never be successful again. It does not matter what it does as long as all of its models are based on lower priced Ford platforms. Further it does not matter that lower end Lexus or Infinities are based on Toyota or Nissan. They don't have the image of being higher priced Toyotas or Nissans. The only way Lincoln can have a chance of survival is to have exclusive platforms That may be the only method to throw away Lincoln's more expensive Ford dilemma that Ford has put Lincoln in.
#3375 of 4409 Re: Whatever [edward53]
Aug 29, 2011 (5:34 am)
Most car buyers don't care or even know about platform sharing - what they care about is what the car looks like, feels like, features and how it drives.
As long as they produce gorgeous sheetmetal that doesn't look like a Ford model, provide luxury caliber interiors with all the luxury features that luxury buyers expect and back it up with performance and/or fuel economy they will be successful.
Are they going to beat BMW? Nobody is and Cadillac is foolish to keep trying, especially when they call every new car the [1/3/5] fighter.
Here is what I expect for the new MKZ based on insider info:
Sheet metal that looks more like Aston Martin than Ford/Lincoln
Standard AWD w/300+ hp, possible 350-400 hp ecoboost 3.5L
Upgraded high tech interiors with higher quality material
Retractable glass roof, electronically adjustable suspension
Plus the existing amenities and a totally new MyLincolnTouch
Throw in a high mpg hybrid (even better than the current MKZ hybrid), standard maintenance and an upgraded dealership experience and it will be successful.
And all for a fraction of the cost of the CTS. And don't forget all of the development can be shared with the European Mondeo as well as the cheaper Fusion.
It's not the platform - it's what you do with it.
There are also rumors of a RWD model possibly based on the Falcon but not sure about that one.
#3376 of 4409 Re: Whatever [akirby]
Aug 29, 2011 (5:37 am)
Oh, Allen, you simply will not give in when you get an idea in your head. You state:
The SRX is both smaller and cheaper than the MKX - that's why it sells.
Hogwash. The MKX is 186.7 inches long, the SRX is 190.3 inches long. The MKX has a wheelbase that is 0.7" longer, but that hardly makes it a bigger vehicle. MKX has 305 hp, and SRX has 308. They compete in the exact same class, along with the Lexus RX (in between MKX and SRX in length).
The SRX does have a "strippo" model, that starts at around $36,000, but that is not the one that is selling. The comparable SRX, MKX and RX start at $39,715, $39,415 and $39,075. The RX still sells the best, but it is not because it is "smaller and cheaper." The are all essentially the same size and price (AWD versions too are within a few bucks of each other).
As for "cheaper platform," the Cadillac does borrow from the Chevy Equinox, but not in the way that the MKX borrows from the Ford Edge. The Cadillac has a different (shorter actually) wheelbase than the Equinox and a whole different stance on its wheels. Cadillac did many things under the metal to make its own upgrades chassis (look it up). Nonetheless, I agree with you that it is not necessary for a luxury brand to have its own dedicated architecture, if the resulting product is distinct enough from its lesser brethren. However, it should be acknowledged that Cadillac has put more into differentiation of the SRX than most companies bother to do. It sells because it is priced with the market, it looks good and is equipped well, and it is a Cadillac, without so much damaged goods baggage.
With Lincoln, we have always been waiting 2-3 years this past decade. I remember when you thought that the MKS was going to be a success, and when you pointed out that the MKT was the first "clean sheet" new Lincoln design.
Don't get me wrong. I want Lincoln to succeed. I hated to see Mercury fail. But let's not be Pollyanna about it. Other companies seem to be able to come back sales-wise and sustain several brands, all with increasing sales (e.g., your hated Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac...not to mention Opel and Holden). I could make you even madder by mentioning Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and Ram, but I won't because then you will go off on another tangent, rather than admitting that the SRX and MKX directly compete in size and price.
#3377 of 4409 Re: truly new start? [edward53]
Aug 29, 2011 (6:42 am)
I dunno. I'm 46 and would've considered a Lincoln Town Car, but nothing in Lincoln's current lineup interests me in the least - a couple of rebadged Fords, a truncated MKS with a puny V-6, and an array of stupid crossovers and SUVs does nothing for me. Heck, I'll take a Chrysler 300 over anything Lincoln now offers.
#3378 of 4409 Re: truly new start? [edward53]
Aug 29, 2011 (6:43 am)
Lincoln: What a Mercury Should've Been.