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Lincoln Zephyr, Lincoln MKS, Lincoln MKX
#3184 of 4409 Re: How reasonable is it to expect [gregg_vw]
Aug 03, 2010 (10:34 am)
The MKZ, MKX MKS, MKT have been incremental stabs at reviving Lincoln. The MKT was supposed to be a solid effort from the newestLincoln thinking. There is no reason Ford could not hire the talent to make Lincoln a competive division. But something isn't translating in the process. I don't know what the problem is at this point, but they need to fix it. They do not have unlimited time in which to keep missing the mark.
Ford made $5B the first half of 2010 and there is no reason to think they'll earn any less in the 2nd half with the Fiesta hitting full stride. They're making so much money now that they're paying down debt in huge chunks. And they're able to do this while still investing heavily in new vehicles. So please explain to me why Lincoln is in so much danger and can't take 2-3 years to get its act together like Ford did with the Ford brand? Unless Ford starts losing money again (which seems impossible at this point) then I don't see the problem.
The MKT is the only clean sheet Lincoln at this point. The exterior is questionable and it's in a very small market segment so it's hard to judge it based on sales volume. The MKS and MKZ are still holdovers with only minor tweaks done in the last 2 years - they're nowhere near their potential once they get a clean sheet design. The Navigator will only be a niche product now (as are all full sized SUVs) but has to wait for a new F150 based platform along with the Expedition - can't justify a unique platform for such small sales potential.
The MKX is the closest thing to a clean sheet design from Lincoln other than the MKT but it still must share a greenhouse with the Edge until the full redesign (this was just a mid cycle refresh). But the new interior is stunning and blows away the SRX especially with MyTouch and other features as do the drivetrains. Exterior styling is a draw - I like both. But I think the MKX also has more interior room. We'll have to wait and see how it sells compared to the SRX.
Let's count the Cadillac duds in the interest of full disclosure:
first gen CTS
first gen SRX
The next gen Lincolns will have no excuses - they're fully funded now and with Mercury (and Volvo and Jag and AM and LR) out of the way there should be no excuses.
You really can't judge Lincoln on what it's done so far - the question is what does it do now that it's getting the attention, funding and resources that it's been lacking for years.
GM is "getting by" with lots of fleet sales and huge incentives. Ford is making money hand over fist with half the brands, only slightly lower sales volumes, half the employees, lower incentives and fewer fleet sales.
Ford fundamentally changed how they do business. GM has not.
Ford is building one vehicle that can be sold globally with minor variations. GM is taking Opels and putting Buick badges on them (again).
I'm still waiting for you to explain the business rationale for keeping GMC. That to me is the single most glaring evidence that GM still doesn't get it.
Aug 03, 2010 (1:22 pm)
" In real life, it compares very well with competitors like the Audi, but so what if the buying public doesn't see it?"
And there's the rub...if the buying public does not see it or does not want it, it dies...
I always thought that the Lincoln LS was a beautiful, understated car, that was well made (never had one)...yet, just today in conversation about cars, one guy mentioned he had a friend who owned an LS that was pure junk...he referred to things like, "if she was lucky enought to have it start and run, she could go to work that day" and "it spent more time at the dealer..."...
Maybe it was only that one car, but it was not what I was expecting to hear about the LS...
#3186 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [marsha7]
Aug 04, 2010 (6:12 pm)
The 2000 - 2002 LSs had a number of issues, but as far as I know from 2003 on up they were pretty good. I know of a number of people who had early LSs who basically swore off Lincoln forever. Some because of problems and others because Lincoln abandoned the sport sedan segment, altogether.
The Aviator had some engine problems, too, and that has not helped Lincoln's reputation. Of course, at least one poster here had an early LS and an Aviator but I don't think he has given up on Lincoln.
In my opinion, today's Lincoln products, MKS, MKX and MKT in particular, are far better than they are given credit for. The image of the brand is very tarnished, however. I don't know of many people who would aspire to own a Lincoln. While the current products are good, they just aren't distinctive or special enough to overcome the boring, stodgy, "just a gussied up Ford" image. The XYZ naming has been a source of confusion, too.
#3187 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [brucelinc]
Aug 04, 2010 (6:27 pm)
I like where Lincoln is headed - finally. And I do look forward to owning another one someday.
#3188 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [akirby]
Aug 04, 2010 (8:19 pm)
I like that I can throw in some opinions here and get some discussion going. Lincoln needs people to talk about it, good or bad. Subaru for chrissakes gets about 100 times as many posts on edmunds...talk about a boring brand. I don't care if people agree with me. I will still get to work (I wish I never had to work another day in my life), and will still enjoy my evening martini.
Even though Lincoln really does suck as a brand, it was still my favorite luxury car when I was at an impressionable age. I don't think anyone can blame me for thinking or saying that a lot of people who make a lot more dough than I do, really screwed up what was once an actual luxury brand. And now that there has been an effort to really turn things around, they are still issuing bonehead decisions that lead to no increase in sales. Ford can make all the money it wants (and I hope it does), but if they cannot figure out how to make Lincoln relevant, the brand will still be toast.
#3189 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [gregg_vw]
Aug 05, 2010 (5:28 am)
Gregg - I really do respect your input even if I disagree with it. And I don't think anybody will disagree that Ford really screwed the pooch on Lincoln the last decade or two. And Ford cars for that matter. It's taken Mulally over 3 years to fix the Ford brand and fill in missing voids like the Fiesta with best in class products. That will be almost complete early next year with the new Focus and Explorer.
We've only seen bits and pieces of the new Lincoln so far. The Ford team knows exactly what is required to make Lincoln competitive and based on what happened with Ford so far I have no doubt that they'll make it happen as quickly as possible. But cut them a little slack - they've only just begun.
#3190 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [akirby]
Aug 07, 2010 (11:39 am)
I really hope Lincoln is beginning work on that rear drive flagship. Buick is gunning for Lexus (in addition to being a very big name already in the world's largest car market, China). GM is introducing the rear drive Caprice here as a police special only, but in time that chassis will be used here by Buick. Buick's plan is for a rear drive flagship based on the Zeta platform (a version of which underpins the Caprice and the Buick Park Avenue in China). Lincoln could have something to market soon after Buick, and if so, little would be lost in the sales wars. The newest thing often gets the sales boost, and coming online not long after the Buick could be an advantage. Of course, it has to be pretty. Safe efforts like the (anonymous) MKS apparently don't rebuild a damaged brand very well.
#3191 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [gregg_vw]
Aug 07, 2010 (12:17 pm)
The MKS refresh is said to be stunning. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
#3192 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [gregg_vw]
Aug 07, 2010 (1:01 pm)
My friend who owns a Cadillac ex Hummer dealership has told me that Cadillac is going to again proceed with its rwd flagship. It would be styled similar to the Cadillac 16 show car. with a direct injection 420-450 HP V8 as standard with optional awd. Right now it would base sticker at about 75 K . Lincoln should not worry about Buick unless Buick is going to go really upscale. Lincoln should be competing with Cadillac, Mercedes, BMW, Infinitie and Lexus as Mulally has promised.
#3193 of 4409 Re: gregg vw [akirby]
Aug 07, 2010 (1:09 pm)
More importantly the new gen version is supposed to be completely re-engineered. If the new gen version is to have a modern rwd configuration then it would probably be wise to change its name because the previous gen is associated with fwd.