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Lincoln Zephyr, Lincoln MKS, Lincoln MKX
#2667 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [akirby]
Feb 25, 2008 (11:33 am)
I wouldn''t go so far as to say the future is bright. It will easily be better than the current line-up, which pushes the definition of "decent." I'd say it is not a disaster, but it is one of the least uninspired near luxury lines out there.
The Mark LT is thankfully going away. (At least the Blackwood made an effort to be a Lincoln...the lack of an open bed option and 4WD sealed its fate). The Town Car can't even be seen as a luxury model anymore...it is antiquated, underpowered, and lacking in the amenities an over $40K car should have today.
At least the Navigator has a polarizing grill. Nothing much else competitive about it anymore. The MKZ is a good Buick competitor, but the lack of stability control cannot be fixed too soon. The MKX is way too close to being an Edge, but at least they started with a decent vehicle when they tacked on that strange interpretation of a Lincoln grill. The MKS has been talked to death on these boards, and it is still not here yet. It is too tall with too long overhangs, but thankfully avoids being outright dowdy like the Taurus. Too bad they couldn't have waited on the MKS a few months and introduced a really pretty one along with the 2010 Taurus. Won't it just suck for Lincoln if the revamped Taurus makes the MKS look dumpy?
The MKT will be the first Lincoln to adopt the new Lincoln look. So for years to come yet, Lincolns will look all sorts of ways, with all sorts of grills. Is the current lineup better than two years ago or five years ago? It is arguable either way, especially if you compare the past lineups to the competition of two years ago or five years ago.
#2668 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [gregg_vw]
Feb 25, 2008 (11:41 am)
Well said, Gregg. Especially this part: "I'd say it is not a disaster, but it is one of the least uninspired near luxury lines out there" If fact I'd say it IS THE least inspired. Who else even comes close to that title? Infiniti? Hah. Lexus? Get real. Cadillac? Has at least 2 or 3 models that need updating, but is class leading in some areas. Acura? Great interiors, great reliability and performance, but could use a RWD platform. Even Buick has better near-luxury vehicles than Lincoln.
#2669 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [jeyhoe]
Feb 25, 2008 (11:53 am)
I was including the MKS which debuts in just a few months. So from an overall standpoint there will not be a "gaping hole" because the MKS will fill that hole for a large number of potential customers (but obviously not those who want RWD).
Volume wise the MKS is projected to sell 40K units - less than the LS in the first 2 years but more than the last 3 years and by using a less expensive shared platform should produce far more profit. So from a business standpoint it will fill the LS gap. From an enthusiast standpoint - probably not, even when the 340 HP EcoBoost version gets here. They (you) would have to wait for the new GRWD platform.
There is nothing wrong with the MKZ platform. It needs exterior tweaks and a new interior plus the 3.7L V6 (hopefully all coming in December) but as an entry level luxury vehicle it's perfectly fine with FWD/AWD.
The MKX needs the same tweaks as the MKZ. The Navigator needs a total exterior redesign and the new V8 engines. An EcoBoost 3.5L would probably be a nice option as well.
The TC is fleet only for all practical purposes - and that's where it belongs until the new GRWD platform is here. The MKT (we haven't seen the production version) will fill part of the bill from a retail standpoint.
One thing I don't quite understand is the criticism of the MKS interior - I think it's head and shoulders above anything else Lincoln has done. That's real leather on the dash BTW. And there is a wood package that we haven't seen yet - I think that will help. I'll reserve final judgement until I see one in person but I like it.
#2670 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [gregg_vw]
Feb 25, 2008 (12:03 pm)
When I say the future is bright, I'm really talking about long term. Lincoln didn't lose it overnight and they won't get it back that quickly either. I see a steady progression of improvements. Today Lincoln has a commitment to new models, RWD and higher volumes from the highest management positions - something they didn't have at all 3 years ago.
I know some people prefer to focus on the past misdeeds and current situation and I'll be the first to agree that as an entire brand the current lineup sucks compared to even Cadillac. Although to be fair Cadillac has 2 winners (CTS and Escalade) and 3 losers (STS, DTS, SRX) so it's not like they're doing everything right.
#2671 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [jeyhoe]
Feb 25, 2008 (12:17 pm)
My point or intent if there was one would be to convince Ford to grab the modified DEW-98 platform WHICH THEY'VE ALREADY PAID to develop, and use it for another real world class Lincoln. You, like Mulally and the rest, apparently are content to build something not quite so world class. It STILL boggles that they'll kiss this existing paid for platform good bye and turn around and begin development on something less and pay more money for return that's 5 years out at least (not cars, ROI). But what do I know?
If you want a dew98 based sedan, it's readily available:
I just don't understand your fascination with that platform. While it handled as good as a BMW, it did not provide the best ride quality and this was due to the basic suspension design - not something that could be easily fixed without compromising handling. The Jag versions are tuned more for luxury than performance so it's somewhat masked. And this came from a LS suspension engineer - you'd think he'd know. DEW98 was not the stiffest platform, either. Remember the Tbird needed cross bracing behind the seats for a convertible top - it wasn't stiff enough without them. Last but not least is the engine choices - it won't fit anything bigger than a 4.2L V8.
I guarantee that whatever new GRWD platform arrives it will be stiffer than dew98 (which is already at least 10 years old), will allow the use of larger, less expensive V8s and will support a much higher volume of vehicles thus costing less over the life of the platform.
Obviously you think they'll take a cheap Falcon platform and try to use that, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.
#2672 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [akirby]
Feb 25, 2008 (7:17 am)
Nope. Cadillac is not doing everything right. However, they do have a lineup that looks like vehicles from the same manufacturer.
The STS is not really a "loser." It is not selling as well as Cadillac would like adn so they will replace it, but still, it is beating most of its direct competition (such as the Infiniti M sedan). The SRX has the same baggage as the Taurus X and Pacifica: it's a fat looking wagon rather than looking more like a CUV. Like the Taurus, it is a good car (truck?) that isn't going to tear up the sales charts because of its looks.
The DTS still sells to the over 80 set and as Caddy's competitor to the TC, it is a better car and a better seller. But that isn't saying much (other than Cadillac has nothing as lame as the Mark LT and Town Car).
#2673 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [gregg_vw]
Feb 25, 2008 (7:19 am)
Can't argue with that.
#2674 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [akirby]
Feb 25, 2008 (12:25 pm)
Well I'm glad we're talking again.
I don't see how you can include a car that's not on sale yet as filling a hole that's existed for 2 years, but I wont belabor the point. I will say that I like the exterior of the MK S enuf that when the MKS with AWD and the ecoboost engine FINALLY arrive (2010, 2011?) it MIGHT actually get a look from me. Though the fact that Lincoln stands to pocket a LARGER percentage of my hard-earned money than they did the last time I bought a sedan from them is NOT a selling point. I'd have to negotiate BELOW x-plan pricing for this reason or I woudnt buy it. After all, I'm not buying a car so Ford can make more money.
What cars does the MKZ compete with? It's been out now for, what, 3 years (including the Zephyr) and I've not yet seen it compared to anything. And that's probably a good thing for Lincoln. The MK Z IMHO should be a Mercury.
The Navigator could use a new interior as well. Just go back to the '06 version would be an improvement. Sell those current guages at antique stores. Oh, and if they dont improve both gas mileage AND HP then dont bother. Personally though I still love my Navigator, I get physically ill when I see the gas mileage display on the dash.
The MK X needs a new interior. The current one is go-kartish and too much hard plastic.
Town Car? Non-sequitor. Are u really saying the MK T will replace the TC?
MK S interior. Haven't sat in one, only seen pictures. Compare it to the competition, not prior Lincolns would be the correct thing to do. From what I've seen it is boring, uninspired the center stack is bleak black, the controls are parts-bin and what more can I say? Do I care that the dashboard, which I will probably never touch, is leather? Only from the standpoint that I would be very afraid that its' exosure to the sun would cause it to crack very quickly. Sit in S then sit in CTS and I doubt anyone will say the S is very good. Though I think I recall someone on here saying just that? Again, I'm working from photos in both CTS and MKS cases.
#2675 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [jeyhoe]
Feb 25, 2008 (12:40 pm)
On the contrary, a leather dash says quality to me. The stitched leather dash board in a Jaguar XJ Vanden Plas really gets noticed over the molded plastic in most. Personal taste. Anyway, other than that black plastic panel in the center stack, it may actually turn out to be a classy interior.
My opinion of the MKS: I still can't get past the overall profile. I love the detailing from the roof pillars to the front of the hood, and the line below the side windows. It really does have some interesting touches. But even though it is over 10" longer than an LS, it is more stubby looking. Why would most people want a large car that looks smaller than it is? It was a real trick to make a long rear overhang actually look short! And even with that tallness--which often can confer greater interior room--the similarly sized but not as tall Buick Lucerne offers more leg room and more interior width. So I am not sure what the payoff is for compromising a sleek look as much as they did.
#2676 of 4170 Re: Through the past, Darkly [gregg_vw]
Feb 25, 2008 (12:58 pm)
Never having experienced the luxury of a Jag or a leather dash, I'll defer to you and Allen here.
"But even though it is over 10" longer than an LS, it is more stubby looking. Why would most people want a large car that looks smaller than it is"
This to be honest means nothing to me. Almost a foot longer than the LS puts it in 7 series territory or more doesnt it? I really dont share your ability to see it as being smaller than it is. To me it looks as big as it is. Foreshortening, as pointed out to Joyce by Hemingway, does not apply here. It is what it is. Doesn't look stubby to me.