Last post on May 09, 2013 at 9:32 AM
You are in the Acura TL
What is this discussion about?
BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G37, Acura TL, Lexus IS 350, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Cadillac CTS, Volvo S60, Audi A4, Acura TSX, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#15686 of 16087 Re: Acura TL [flightnurse]
Feb 18, 2013 (4:25 pm)
You are right - I don't know why - that's why I asked the question, which you were quick to answer with "because they don't" then you backed up that insight with your friend didn't cross shop it - and that was presented as fact. I don't have the data because - thus i asked the question- if I knew what the answer was I would not ask the question.
You answered ". Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS."
Why would honda offer a touring edition of that same accord that starts at 33400 buxs? Does that sound like economy? It's more then the tsx-
You and "backwards hat" guy (btw hes been mia)should read a magazine post 1995- new world.
#15687 of 16087 Re: Acura TL [flightnurse]
Feb 18, 2013 (4:55 pm)
Too funny. All we are saying is that some people do crossshop like that based on our experience in response to your huge survey of a couple of friends and coming up with a definitive statement that nobody does.
I don't think being an "auto enthusiustt" puts anyone in a special category. Even people that don't live cars have brains and can recognise value.
I never even insinuated that most people crossshop those kinds of cars but I know that a lot do. It's silly to assume that just because a couple of friends don't do something that eveyone else in the country doesn't either. If you would say something like "IMO I don't think most people shop for cars that way based on a few of friends buying habits". Then it's clear you really don't know but you have an opnion. But, you rarely do that. You just make definitive statements based on huge assumptions.
I would agree that most people probably don't crossshop that way and that is one of the reasons that the car mags test cars that are recognised to be in the same category. However, I think another big reason is that car companies don't want their cars compared to economy cars or luxury cars respectively so that is probably one of the conditions that the car companies have when loaning a car for a comparo. In fact, I just read somewhere where Lincoln wouldn't provide a MKZ because the mag wanted to use it in a comparo with some mainstream cars. I read a lot of car sites so I just can't remember where I read that recently.
If you frequented a lot of the other Edmunds forums or owners forums of mainstream cars you would realize that a lot of people are comparing a Camry to ES etc.
#15688 of 16087 Re: Acura TL [flightnurse]
Feb 18, 2013 (5:54 pm)
Sweeny, really you have no idea why they have different buyers. Basically the difference between Honda and Acura is that Acura is the upscale division or builder of luxury cars and Honda is builder of economy cars. Having the middle class buyer isn't looking at the Accord and TXS. Now if you can show me I am wrong, direct me to the data.
I'll jump in here. It's kind of silly to pretend that every buyer is the same. I know when I was looking at more compact premium sedans a number of years back, I looked at the Passat and the Audi A4. I also looked at the Accord, TL, and TSX a number of years ago. Some people who are very badge conscious won't do that. Others will not care about a badge as long as a vehicle has what they want. And what they want has a lot of variation, too.
Some people look at ELLPS for the "L"; some look more for the "P". Depending upon which factors are important, cross-shopping with the more "plebian" brands may or may not occur.
What I suspect is true is that there are *fewer* people who will cross shop. But not nobody. And any of us who pretends we know that percentage is just guessing.
#15689 of 16087 Re: Acura TL [flightnurse]
Feb 19, 2013 (6:18 am)
There may not be a large overlap in Acura vs Honda buyers, but as long as prices overlap, there will be. Some people look at what they can spend first and then they have large flexibility on what they can buy. I'm one of those. O don't look at brands, or labels, I look at what's there. When I was buying my '03 WRX, I cross shoped it with Passat wagon. According to your creed I shouldn't be allowed because they're different cars addressed to different people - I don't care. When it's time for my 328 to go, my next car may be anything between Ford Focus and 5-series. Am I allowed to shop like that?
#15690 of 16087 Re: My pet peeve ... [dino001]
Feb 19, 2013 (6:53 pm)
I feel you and yr smart to recognize it! It's the only way for Mercedes to compete with lexus, and Acura! A Kia has way more features!
Feb 20, 2013 (9:14 am)
Here is a perspective -- I have no proof that this is any more than an anecdote. I suspect, however, the following perspective probably is a data point, therefore of some statistical significance.
For years I was a brand shopper -- the brand I chose was Audi. Even during the "Audi years," I did, from time to time, shop BMW's. Even when I could see a difference in the cars, I would always factor in a characteristice "for the money." For some time Audi A4's or A6's offered more content for the same money or less money for similar content (compared to the BMW 3 or 5 series).
Note: all but two of my cars for a period of time were obtained via a 36 month lease.
When looking at cars based on lease payments, I have found -- even within the past 3 years -- that Premium cars generally have lower lease payments than their down-scale cousins and non-cousins.
My assumptions why this is so have to do with residual values (which, as we know when they are high tend to reduce monthly payments) and manufacturer's "support" (subventing.)
Additionally, there are times that the Premium cars are more sharply discounted off MSRP, which also tends to lower lease payments.
If, for instance, a Honda was shopped against a "similar" Acura (in the eye of the beholder and for purposes of this example) the Acura typically cost "about the same" as the Honda -- and at times (during the calendar end of year sales season) it is possible to lease an Acura for less than a Honda.
Another example, Audi vs VW -- here you'd think VW would not want Audi subvented leases to cannibalize VW sales, but, it happened/happens.
Were the shopper to cross shop a VW (as an example only) Passat and compare it (based on lease payments) to an A4, it is possible (or has been in recent times) the A4 will cost about the same as the VW and the Audi will be quattro, have an 8-speed auto and be otherwise equally or better contented than the VW.
I am not saying these cars are comparable, based on Car & Driver, Road & Track or Automobile magazine comparison tests. Typically the Passat will be compared to a Camry or maybe an Avalon or Maxima. Yet, if you wandered into a giant "auto mall" it is not beyond the pale to imagine someone standing in the Infiniti lot which is adjacent to the Nissan lot to wander over the parking lot to look at the "fill in the blank" and make a comparison of the cars without regard (at that moment) for "price" or monthly payment.
I am driving a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with two accessories on it, which pushed to pre-disounted MSRP over $47K (or maybe over $48K). Since I got a 13% discount off of MSRP on the car it was actually $100 less per month and 6 months term less than a slightly less expensive Audi A4, which is what I thought I would end up with.
Normally, I would never have cross shopped the A4 with the TL (even though it is possible the car magazines might have run comparison.)
But for 6-months and $100/mo more for the Audi. The TL seemed a bargain.
#15692 of 16087 Re: Cross Shopping experience [markcincinnati]
Feb 20, 2013 (10:49 am)
I see your way of buying, but it's not for me. I NEVER leased and it is not likely I will start any time soon. This may be a function of cars I have bought and continue to like. Subaru doesn't subsidize their leases much (residuals tend to be close to market value, they sometimes lower the money factor), even the 328i I bough last year (wagon) had lease with MF way too high for my taste. After I factored 15K miles/yr I need (perhaps a bit less, but not much), all the extra fees that come with the lease, lease was not even close to be considered. It was something like 5 yr. loan at below 3% or three year lease with extra fees and equivalent MF around 5% (after conversion to interest rate) - and the residual wasn't awesome, either. No can do in my book. If I were getting a sedan or coupe, sure - lower MF would compensate for higher fees.
#15693 of 16087 Re: Cross Shopping experience [markcincinnati]
Feb 20, 2013 (10:52 am)
Interesting take- thank you. I can def see the reason to go "up" if the price is right. And In the case of the TL vs the A4 we are talking 3600 bux of real dollars on a car you do not even own, assuming a 36mth lease- real money.
Feb 20, 2013 (12:54 pm)
I leased a 2013 CTS sedan in Dec so far I have been very happy with it I have about 700 miles on it I am still learning about it would due again
#15695 of 16087 Re: Cross Shopping experience [markcincinnati]
Feb 20, 2013 (5:39 pm)
I am driving a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD Advance with two accessories on it
What is your take on what magazine auto testers have been saying about current gen Acura TL steering. They say it has problem on-center. I had a 2012 TL loaner last year, drove it on suburban, interstate, country roads and the steering feel was weird. Not like my older 2004 TL which is very precise, no on-center problems.