Last post on Feb 25, 2009 at 1:24 PM
You are in the Honda CR-V
What is this discussion about?
Honda CR-V, Toyota RAV4, Subaru Forester, SUV
#515 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [dzn]
Mar 19, 2007 (7:58 am)
Not sure what system the Previa had, but Toyota used to use Viscous Couplings, which is actually the same system in your MT5 Outback.
That defaults to 50/50, and when the two axles move at different speeds (i.e. slip) the viscous fluid sheers and lock the two together temporarily. It can therefore send more than 50% of the power to the rear wheels, either actually.
Nice thing about them is that they are full-time, i.e. they act as a center differential so both axles can be engaged the entire time.
Manual transmission Foresters work the same way.
I bet your Previa simply had better tires on it. Toyota moved away from the VC system for the 2006 RAV4, my guess is they did so to obtain better EPA fuel economy numbers, as the new system is part-time and actually less advanced.
RAV4 defaults to pure FWD, and then sends power to the rear wheels when it senses slip. Not sure what % it can send to the rear, but I think it's less than 50%. When the latest generation was launched, information was scarce, leading me to believe they didn't really want a lot of scrutiny for the system.
CR-V works in a similar manner using a fast-acting Rotary Blade Coupling.
That video is interesting but keep in mind Subaru added VDC to some Forester models for MY2007, and Honda came out with a totally new CR-V. The video was used by SoA internally to help train dealership staff on how to "sell" the advantages of Subaru's drivetrain layout.
The ramp test is very tough, and while the VTD and VDC systems manage to climb that ramp, my educated guess is that the Viscous Coupling and auto-AWD systems would fail. Else they would have showed them. Then again, RBC, Haldex, and Torsen systems would also all fail to climb that ramp.
#516 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [ateixeira]
Mar 19, 2007 (1:25 pm)
If by MT5 you are referring to a 5-speed manual, my car is actually an automatic.
Bottom line...which car do you think would be better in snowy conditions
Subaru Outback or Forester
Toyota Rav 4
I would be getting an auto-transmission.
Thanks in advance.
#517 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [dzn]
Mar 19, 2007 (1:44 pm)
Oh, OK, you mentioned a manual so I thought that's what you had.
Honda actually lowered the new CR-V, so it has less clearance than the previous model. Still better than regular cars.
RAV4 I think gets 7.1-7.5" depending on the model, though that information may be outdated. Plus, they offer 3 different rim sizes (16", 17", 18") so I'm not sure if that has an effect on clearance.
Forester has the most ground clearance and the only full-time AWD system among those 3. Ground clearance is 7.9" for the turbos, 8.1" for the 2.5l base engine.
I would go with the Forester if that is your criteria. Add snow tires to any one of these and they'd be excellent snow vehicles.
#518 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [ateixeira]
Mar 19, 2007 (4:40 pm)
Clearance is not that much of an issue. Traction and maintaining control are the characteristics I am looking for.
That's why I was interested in the different AWD systems (front/rear power distribution etc) and how well the vehicles would perform in snowy conditions. The fact that the poster had mentioned that the maximum of 30% power distribution to the rear on the CRV made him eliminate that vehicle as an option made me reconsider it as a viable option.
#519 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [ateixeira]
Mar 20, 2007 (12:46 am)
Hey Juice, maybe it's time to drag out the ol' Subaru training video again?
The Forester with a manual defaults to a 50/50 power split front and rear, which is ideal in my mind. Add the ground clearance and I think it would be the ride of choice for snow. I did drive up a forest road in early winter with mine in about 9 inches of snow. About 3 miles. You could hear the underside drag. I am not saying it was a smart idea, but I made the entire drive without a hang up and I knew the road well. Only other vehicle i saw was a tacoma, and they looked at me like I was from another planet.
RAV4 would be next for me. It's system is capable of shifting 45% of the power to the rear, and it also has a switch that allows you to lock that 45% to the back up to around 20 mph or so. Also has hill-descent control and hill assist control; cool features I wouldn't mind Subaru adopting...especially HDC. I would worry about Toyota's typically over-intrusive VDC though.
CR-V is last place for me. Que the said video...
#520 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [tifighter]
Mar 20, 2007 (7:05 am)
To be fair that video showed the last generation CR-V. The new one has less clearance, but I'm sure the AWD system was enhanced in some way.
Also, Subaru didn't show its own weaknesses. While models with VTD or VDC can climb that now infamous ramp, Foresters without VDC cannot (neither can a RAV4 or CR-V). Only the Forester XT Sports automatic could climb it in this class.
I bet SH-AWD models like the RD-X would also have success on that ramp. BMW had a demo I saw at one of their events where an X5 could climb, so X-Drive probably can, too. And Audi they had on-site could not. Same for a Lexus RX, both failed to climb the same ramp.
#521 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [dzn]
Mar 20, 2007 (9:51 am)
"The fact that the poster had mentioned that the maximum of 30% power distribution to the rear on the CRV made him eliminate that vehicle as an option made me reconsider it as a viable option."
Shame about that. That poster is incorrect and ruled out a vehicle based on bogus information. Power distribution to the rear is near 70%. Older CR-Vs went to a 50/50 split, but Honda increased rear torque capacity 20% for 2007.
While we're at it, Juice made a mistake in describing RT4WD in one of his recent posts, too.
"CR-V works in a similar manner using a fast-acting Rotary Blade Coupling."
I suspect he has it confused with the system used on the original Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. Those two used a rotary blade coupling. (They have since changed to an electric sensor and clutch system.)
No, the CR-V uses a combination of two activation methods. The primary activation of the system comes from a set of hydraulic pumps, which engage a set of wet clutch packs. That's been the basis of the CR-V's AWD since 1996. A few years back, they added a ball-ramp clutch for faster and smoother operation.
First, the ball-ramp clutch engages the main clutch packs. This sends "some" torque to the rear immediately. The hydraulic pumps follow up to reinforce the connection and maximize power distribution.
You can find more details about how RT4WD works at the bottom of this link.
#522 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [varmint]
Mar 20, 2007 (9:57 am)
Oh yeah, as for which is best in the snow?
The Forester has the clearance and the AWD to make going forward easiest. However, last I checked only the turbo model had a Stability Control program. So, stopping and maintaining directional control once you do start sliding is going to be more difficult for the average driver.
What you need is a good combination of basic handling traits, good AWD, good clearance for deep snow, and stability control. Weigh those factors based on the kind of snow you most frequently encounter, but do not place too much weight on any one factor.
#523 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [varmint]
Mar 20, 2007 (10:22 am)
Some people turn VSC off in the sand and snow. It isn't always helpful.
Not saying I wouldn't want it, because I do, but I would want an off switch, at least.
PS I stand corrected regarding RT4WD, I guess I'm guilty of grouping the part-time systems together
#524 of 782 Re: Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4 or Subaru Forester? [ateixeira]
Mar 20, 2007 (10:52 am)
People will turn off VSA (technically the traction control) if launching from a slick surface, or if you need to "rock" the car out of a rut. However, once you get going, you are far better off with it left on.
Most vehicles have an on/off button. The CR-V does. Not sure about the RAV4. In the past, Toyota has not given the driver that option, but they've recently changed their tune on the issue.
p.s. Not a problem. There are so many AWD systems on the market, who can keep up?