Last post on Jul 05, 2013 at 9:31 AM
You are in the Toyota FJ Cruiser
What is this discussion about?
Toyota FJ Cruiser, Jeep Wrangler
#80 of 542 Re: Plastic FJ Bumpers [steenh]
May 02, 2006 (12:22 pm)
I agree with you the FJ Cruiser is really not on the same 'trail' as the Jeep Wrangler. It's more like the XTerra and the Jeep Liberty. And I said from the beginning that I was really disappointed that Toyota didn't stay true to the original FJ when it came to off-road capability. Rather they bring out this re-skinned 4Runner and tell us how good it will be off-road and make out like it will be as good or better than the original FJ off-road. And it's nothing of the sort.
Don't expect any big improvements on this FJ platform Steenh. The FJ's unibody is set up for independent front suspension (IFS) just as the 4Runner is. In fact, it uses the same parts. IFS is poor for articulation. Toyota isn't going to spend all the money to build one vehicle with a solid axle in front. And they aren't going to put a removable top on it either. They MIGHT (if they cared) put some decent steel skid plates on it, but I doubt they will do this either because most people that will buy the FJ will not get mud on the tires. However this potential market segment wants to own a vehicle that Ďlooksí like a real off-roader, one that looks like that original FJ, but in reality itís mostly window dressing. Basically what you see is what you get. Some things that would make it a good Jeep off-road counterpart will just not be possible the way this platform is configured. It would cost way too much and for Toyota it makes poor business sense.
On the other hand, Jeepís basic platform had a convertible top and solid axles for over 60 years, through redesigns they continued with the basic physics that worked well off-road and added features to further enhance ability. Since this platform was always set up this way, for them to continue putting solid axles in the all-new 2007 wrangler is no big deal. It does not share a platform with any other Daimler Chrysler vehicle so there are no compromises. It's designed to be the best at one thing: off-road.
As for your (bad) experience regarding the Jeep Wrangler's reliability, I can only point to the excellent reliability rating I told you about before which I found on MSN autos and other sites. I have owned many Jeeps and have several friends that have owned them and we have all had really good success with their performance and reliability. No complaints.
If I really wanted an off-road machine I would dump the FJ and buy the 2007 Wrangler Rubicon in a heartbeat.
#81 of 542 Re: Plastic FJ Bumpers [fourx4ever]
May 03, 2006 (5:36 am)
Don't forget that Toyota has been selling LC's around the world for many years and still does today in versions that are not sold in the US. Those are much truer to the hardcore off-road segment... including solid axles and diesel engines. If they wanted to dominate Jeep, they'd be best served to just start importing what already is for sale outside the US. No design effort on Toyotas part at all.
I don't know why they don't, but honestly have never tried to get the answer. I'm sure someone reading this board knows... and it would be nice to hear from someone else...
I'm starting to bore myself :>
#82 of 542 Not Toyota's market focus
May 03, 2006 (8:29 am)
As I understand it, the last of the solid axle LCs were made around 1998 some time. The new 100 LC series has IFS. After reading an Australian review on the 2006 Land Cruiser 100 model I discovered it comes standard with IFS:
However the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the full size LC, its based on the 4-runner which I believe has been IFS everywhere for a long, long time.
Steenh, there are two really simple reasons why Toyota does not offer the real off-road basics like solid axles in the new FJ: 1) it would be way to expensive for them to do this on just one model. 2) The true off-road crowd is not the market they are focusing on. This vehicle is intended for the office guys and soccer moms that watch TV and see a select few people doing the extreme stuff in Jeeps and old FJís and then they think they would like to have a vehicle that kind of portrays that image. But at the same time they donít want to give up the nice ride of the IFS, the very quiet ride and all that extra room. The new FJ is not really intended to do the real stuff, its just intended to portray that image by riding on the old FJís reputation. Kind of like a pellet gun modeled after a Colt 1911 compared to the real .45 caliber Colt government issued 1911. You can fool a lot of people with the air gun, but when push comes to shove it wonít do the same thing.
Oh and Steenh, I can tell you really love these conversations
#83 of 542 Re: Not Toyota's market focus [fourx4ever]
May 03, 2006 (9:29 am)
Not one model on solid axle... you have to get that out of your head.
Here are the specs on the new 78 Series... obviously not sold in US. Please note the solid front axle.
Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications
Bore & Stroke: 94.0mm x 100.0mm
Compression Ratio: 18.8:1
Fuel System: Direct injection EFI.
Engine Block: 6 cylinders, In-line, SOHC, 4 valves per cylinder.
Maximum Power: 122kW3400rpm
Max Torque: 380Nm1400rpm
Valves: 4 per cylinder
Transmission: 5 speed manual
Front : Rigid live axle, leading arm, coil springs, gas dampers and anti-roll bar.
Rear : Rigid live axle, semi-elliptic leaf springs, gas dampers.
I would have to guess that Toyota sells at least as many solid front axle LC's as they do IFS LC's since most IFS are sold in US.
Here are some LC sales stats I dug up.
The Year 2000 was the 50th Anniversary of the Cruiser and total sales were over 191,000. US Sales were around 50k. Total Global production up until 2000 was 3.72 million.
By contrast, the entire jeep brand including Grand, Liberty Cherokee and Wrangler sold 214k units in 2005. My guess is that LC is selling more units today than the entire Jeep brand, and more Solid Axle LC's than Wranglers... if they would just import them to the US.
You are wearing me down
#84 of 542 Re: Not Toyota's market focus [steenh]
May 03, 2006 (2:18 pm)
Steenh, thanks for the specs they look good, but this is what my search found on the LC models:
OK the 78 series LCís production run went from 1985 to 2002, so itís done. And yes, it looks to have had leaf springs in the back and coils up front Ė (strange they didnít go to coils all around like the Grand Cherokee but anyway..)
The 80 series had solid axles but its production run seems to have ended in 1997.
The 90 series comes with IFS. It was one of the main new features of the model. The 100 series is also offered in IFS only, as far as I can tell.
I canít find any evidence that Toyota made a vehicle with front and back solid axles in 2005 or that they will for 2006. Again, this is kind of moot since the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the LC but on the 4Runner and to my knowledge it is NOT offered anywhere with a solid front axle!
About Jeep vs. LC production, I think youíll see a rapid jump in Jeep sales world wide in the next few years. Daimler Chrysler is now using a Steyr plant in Austria to manufacture more Jeep models for Europe. I have heard from several sources that the demand for Jeeps in Europe is quite strong and that filling the demand has been the problem in the past.
When I was in Ukraine last year I saw several Jeeps and a lot of Mercedes G-Wagons, but I didnít see even one LC. In Russia this year, again, I saw several Wranglers, and a few Cherokees, but canít remember seeing one LC Ė lots of Nivas though
The new 2007 Jeep Wrangler will also be offered, in more than 100 countries world wide. This is a major expansion for this model. It will be offered in both right and left drive with the CRD diesel as an option. The much longer (20Ē more in the wheel base) 4-door Unlimited version will also be offered. It will be the only current production 4-door vehicle with a removable top produced in the world. All Wranglers will be offered in the Rubicon package for the ultimate off-road equipment. I would dare say that the Rubicon Unlimited 4-door model is likely to take a bite out of Land Cruiser sales in countries where vehicles are used for work and not for status Ė itís just better equipped than even most equipped LCs that were ever made.
#85 of 542 Re: Not Toyota's market focus [fourx4ever]
May 03, 2006 (4:33 pm)
My cousin in Yemen just purchased a 2006 LandCruiser FZJ-78 with dual solid axles, front and rear knob operated locking electric diffs, the I-6 240hp 286lbs ft torque gas engine, front bench seat with side rear seats, soft top (I don't like soft tops) with optional A/C wich I thought was a joke. The A/C will do you know good with a soft top lol. Ofcourse its a 5spd "with" factory skid plates that cover up the gas tank, transfer case. $28,000 USD for it.
He's thinking of selling it and buying a 2006 fiber top 78 loaded including fender flares and the meaty Bridgestones.
Honestly, I thought his FZJ-78 was expensive at $28gs, after noticing the Jeeps prices, whhoo wee, these companies are making alot of money.
As for the FJ-Cruiser, 4Runner, there based on the LandCruiser Prado Chassis, the 120 series. Yes, the GX-470 is a LandCruiser Prado. Your thinking that the 4Runner and FJ are like the Nissan Pathfinder and Jeep Cherokee...unibody.
The 4Runner, FJ-Cruiser, LandCruiser Prado, Lexus GX/LX-470, LandCruiser 100 are all body on frame vehicles. They are all amazingly capable, but to be honest, since I am an FJ owner, I wish that the front piece of junk bumper is optional lol.
In the Middle East, MAINLY in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and UAE; the LandCruiser 100, 120, and 70 series sell 75% total. Thats 25% of Camrys, Corollas, Avalons...the rest of the lineup. In the more rugged countries such as Oman, Yemen, UAE, its 80% Toyota sales, and 20% of other makes. Jeep Wranglers don't sell because there not attractive at all.. in the eyes of the buyers there.
And with all honesty, i've seen 1 Jeep out of 3000 cars over there, and they don't look like they fit in at all. The Jeep Cherokee over there is a Jeep Liberty. Very poor sales, and the Grand Cherokee, wich is ..well a Cherokee hardly sells.
The new Nissan models such as the Armada, Murano, and Patrol are all picking up sales. But Ford, Dodge, GM have been terrible sellers there.
Back to the FJ, I do think the FJ will sell alot in the Middle East, but the real offroaders wont give up their 70 series for them. The 100 series in the Middle East seen the last SFA in 2003. SFA are also ALOT cheaper than IFS.
So to be honest, Toyota is dumb for offereing IFS with the new FJ because its costing them more to make. But the FJ is a very capable rig. And I am one of the few that will take the FJ out in the rocks, mud, sand.
#86 of 542 Re: Not Toyota's market focus [steenh]
May 03, 2006 (5:03 pm)
Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications
This is the vehicle I had hoped for when Toyota announced the FJ plans. Oh well, I can wait for a decent vehicle to come along. My neighbor just bought a perfect 2003 LX470 with 20k miles for 30 grand. Some fool wanting an economy car probably. Now is the time to buy the big SUVs while folks are in a gas panic.
#87 of 542 Re: Not Toyota's market focus [lccressida]
May 03, 2006 (5:08 pm)
My cousin in Yemen just purchased a 2006 LandCruiser FZJ-78 with dual solid axles
Would the diesel cost more or less there?
#89 of 542 Re: Not Toyota's market focus [lccressida]
May 04, 2006 (4:36 am)
Thank you for pitching in... nice to have someone with first hand knowledge.
Will you be replacing the bumper? And, what's your opinion of the underbody protection... vs. say, a wrangler? Last time I drove a wrangler was a rental on St John. Had 30k miles on it. Rattled like a can of bolts... probably that tough skid plate getting ready to fall off?
In looking at the data on worldwide LC sales, one thing jumped out. No where did they mention Jeep as a competitor. Lot's of references to Nissan Patrol... none mentioned jeep. Wonder why? (Actually I don't... I know why)