MPG Ratings Will Drop Under EPA Proposal

375 messages, Last post on Oct 02, 2008 at 9:08 PM

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What is this discussion about? Fuel Efficiency (MPG)

See this Edmunds.com article! EPA Overhauls Fuel Economy Estimates for 2008 - As the 2008 model-year cars hit the lot, shoppers will notice a big difference — the EPA has changed its fuel economy testing methods to produce mileage estimates that reflect "real world" driving habits. - (more)

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#286 of 375 Re: Will the EPA screw GM like the did the VW TDI? [gagrice] by nippononly Sep 09, 2008 (8:14 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Sep 09, 2008 4:41 pm) If they feel their test is representative of the way regular people drive their cars (I don't, certainly) then they should just let the Volt have stickers with 100+ mpg numbers on them. Should be good for Volt sales....a car that never needs gas, EVER! So what if your payment is $200/month higher than you would otherwise consider comfortable? You won't have to buy any gas, so there's no problem! I believe Volt testing parameters included the contingency that the driving patterns of some owners may not even cause their gas engines to fire once in a year, with the possible long-term maintenance issues that might cause.... Replies to this message: gagrice (Sep 09, 2008 8:18 pm) jeffyscott (Sep 10, 2008 5:35 am) gagrice (Sep 10, 2008 6:12 am) nippononly (Sep 10, 2008 6:15 am)
#287 of 375 Re: Will the EPA screw GM like the did the VW TDI? [nippononly] by gagrice Sep 09, 2008 (8:18 pm)
Replying to: nippononly (Sep 09, 2008 8:14 pm) I agree. But it looks like the EPA wants to tack the 48 MPG they got with the engine running during the whole test. That will be a killer for the Volt sales.
#288 of 375 Re: Will the EPA screw GM like the did the VW TDI? [nippononly] by jeffyscott Sep 10, 2008 (5:35 am)
Replying to: nippononly (Sep 09, 2008 8:14 pm) If it can go 40 miles on a charge, I'd typically never need gas except for the occassional out-of-town trip. Worst case would be maybe 8000 miles with no gas and 2000 with the generator running. So if I got 48 mpg for the 2000 miles that'd be about 42 gallons and my overall mpg would be 10,000 miles/42 gallons = 238 mpg. What might be fair would be to run the generator for the highway test, but not for the city test. Or require maybe that the battery be at 50% charge at the end of the testing. Requiring that the battery end up fully charged is ridiculous, anyone sensible who buy it is not going to operate it in that way. Replies to this message: gagrice (Sep 10, 2008 6:12 am) nippononly (Sep 10, 2008 6:15 am)
#289 of 375 Re: Will the EPA screw GM like the did the VW TDI? [jeffyscott] by gagrice Sep 10, 2008 (6:12 am)
Replying to: jeffyscott (Sep 10, 2008 5:35 am) You are probably the average person that would buy the Volt for commuting mostly on battery. The EPA has such a narrow test criteria they cannot think outside their little mindset. The fairest thing they could post is pure gas 48 MPG on electric 3 cents per mile average. Or 130 MPG equivalent. Bet they screw GM like they did VW on their new diesel. The EPA city figure will also determine the Tax Credit. Replies to this message: nippononly (Sep 10, 2008 6:15 am)
#290 of 375 Re: Will the EPA screw GM like the did the VW TDI? [gagrice] by nippononly Sep 10, 2008 (6:15 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Sep 10, 2008 6:12 am) Seriously, this is a huge government bureaucracy, so we can't excpect miracles. But maybe for new technologies their test is ill-conceived to measure, they could have TWO sets of numbers, the one with the engine running and the battery charged up at the end, and the other the "normal" way. That would let the consumer know that their mileage could vary enormously depending on their driving pattern.
#291 of 375 I T D O E S N O T M A T T E R by larsb Sep 10, 2008 (6:15 am)
The EPA estimate is designed and intended to assist buyers in comparing miles per gallon of similar cars which they are shopping for. To provide an ESTIMATE of the MPG that the owner MIGHT GET. It's an ESTIMATE, People !!! It does not matter what the EPA test ends up showing. The various owners of the Volt will get VASTLY different MPG from each other in the car. The people who use it for an 80 mile road trip will probably get somewhere in the high 40s and pay LESS to recharge it at home. People like me, who would use it for a 14 mile round-trip commute, will get near or above 100 MPG and pay MORE to recharge it at home. The EPA estimate is designed and intended to assist buyers in comparing miles per gallon of similar cars which they are shopping for. To provide an ESTIMATE of the MPG that the owner MIGHT GET. It's an ESTIMATE, People !!! Replies to this message: 104wb (Sep 13, 2008 4:38 am) gagrice (Sep 13, 2008 5:31 am) nippononly (Sep 13, 2008 9:31 am) larsb (Sep 13, 2008 7:17 pm) gagrice (Sep 13, 2008 8:03 pm) and 22 more...
#292 of 375 Re: I T D O E S N O T M A T T E R [larsb] by 104wb Sep 13, 2008 (4:38 am)
Replying to: larsb (Sep 10, 2008 6:15 am) True. A comment, though. The tax credits for efficient technologies (hybrids, lean-burn engines, etc.) are based on EPA estimates, so I think the EPA has some obligation to 'get it close'. Those tax credits can offset a significant chunk of the technology's expense.
#293 of 375 Re: I T D O E S M A T T E R [larsb] by gagrice Sep 13, 2008 (5:31 am)
Replying to: larsb (Sep 10, 2008 6:15 am) The EPA estimate is designed and intended to assist buyers in comparing miles per gallon of similar cars which they are shopping for. To provide an ESTIMATE of the MPG that the owner MIGHT GET. It's an ESTIMATE, People !!! The EPA decides to give the Volt a 48 MPG rating. Joe consumer goes to the Chevy dealer sees the Volt rated at 48 MPG at $40k and then goes to Toyota and see the Prius at 48 MPG and it only costs $27k. Which will he buy? The EPA rating can make or break a cars saleability. The EPA has an obligation to get it close or give more information. I doubt that 10% of buyers research these things on line. So that largest print on the window sticker needs to be realistic. IT IS NOT CLOSE ON MOST VEHICLES since the new test has been implemented. Replies to this message: nippononly (Sep 13, 2008 9:31 am) larsb (Sep 13, 2008 7:17 pm) gagrice (Sep 13, 2008 8:03 pm) larsb (Sep 15, 2008 6:57 am) and 21 more...
#294 of 375 Re: I T D O E S M A T T E R [gagrice] by nippononly Sep 13, 2008 (9:31 am)
Replying to: gagrice (Sep 13, 2008 5:31 am) The EPA has an obligation to get it close or give more information My vote is give more information. Thing is, (1) will people read it, and (2) will they be able to understand it?
#295 of 375 Re: I T D O E S M A T T E R [gagrice] by larsb Sep 13, 2008 (7:17 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Sep 13, 2008 5:31 am) Gary says, " IT IS NOT CLOSE ON MOST VEHICLES since the new test has been implemented." You can CAP THAT FOR EMPHASIS all you like. But that still does not make it true. The new EPA test is VASTLY superior to the old one. It's closer to reality now. We've been over this before. If you don't believe me, then look around at other web sources. Everyone not posting as gagrice knows the new test is better. Gary says, "The EPA decides to give the Volt a 48 MPG rating. Joe consumer goes to the Chevy dealer sees the Volt rated at 48 MPG at $40k and then goes to Toyota and see the Prius at 48 MPG and it only costs $27k. " Bad analogy. Like I said - word of mouth will trump the EPA sticker any day. People, via car reviews and news stories, will quickly understand that the Volt will do better on certain uses (like short commutes) and that for hwy driving it will not be that great. There has NEVER been a case when EPA results caused someone to not buy a car. If they like it, they will buy it. If they are shopping for more MPG, they will move on. Replies to this message: gagrice (Sep 13, 2008 8:03 pm) larsb (Sep 15, 2008 6:57 am) nippononly (Sep 15, 2008 7:08 am) and 2 more... mattandi (Sep 15, 2008 7:41 am) and 17 more...