- #8150 of 8694
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Re: '09 fit sport manual mileage... [steve_]
by boaz47
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Nov 07, 2008 (8:19 pm)
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Replying to: steve_ (Nov 07, 2008 6:46 pm)
No, some of them we propane powered.
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- #8151 of 8694
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Small car M.P.G.
by joshuag
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Nov 08, 2008 (12:57 am)
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Replying to: andre1969 (Nov 07, 2008 10:18 am)
I also had a Saturn SL 5-speed for many years, and I also noticed that it got between 33-40 mpg. My brother has a 2005 Saturn Ion and gets about the same mpg. I think the problem with cars getting the same mpg that they did 15 years ago comes down to the more and more crazy 'Cafe' standards and smog standards that actually make cars get worse gas mileage.
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- #8152 of 8694
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Re: Small car M.P.G. [joshuag]
by snakeweasel
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Nov 08, 2008 (6:51 am)
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Replying to: joshuag (Nov 08, 2008 12:57 am)
I think the problem with cars getting the same mpg that they did 15 years ago comes down to the more and more crazy 'Cafe' standards and smog standards that actually make cars get worse gas mileage.
Not only that but you have to understand that there is the law of diminishing returns. Basically this states that every increase of 1 MPG takes more effort, better technology and costs more. Its easy to increase the fuel economy of an inefficient car but more difficult to increase the fuel economy of an efficient one.
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- #8153 of 8694
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Re: Small car M.P.G. [snakeweasel]
by boaz47
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Nov 08, 2008 (2:29 pm)
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Replying to: snakeweasel (Nov 08, 2008 6:51 am)
I agree completely. CAFE and CARB hove done more to hinder fuel mileage because the manufacturers didn't have to try to win over the consumer. They could quote the CAFE standards and thump their chests.
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- #8154 of 8694
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What is "wrong" with these...
by tifighter
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Nov 26, 2008 (1:12 pm)
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what's wrong does NOT seem to be the price:
Price war
That accent seems like a pretty good deal...
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- #8155 of 8694
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Re: What is "wrong" with these... [tifighter]
by boaz47
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Nov 26, 2008 (4:45 pm)
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Replying to: tifighter (Nov 26, 2008 1:12 pm)
Now that is a move in the right direction for a sub compact. It points out the glaring problem with the Smart car and why it has been in the red for so many years.
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- #8156 of 8694
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Re: Small car M.P.G. [boaz47]
by ateixeira
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Dec 02, 2008 (10:48 am)
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Replying to: boaz47 (Nov 08, 2008 2:29 pm)
CAFE in particular failed miserably. What it did was push people in to trucks instead of cars, which were given a far more lenient standard. At one point trucks outsold cars.
Not only that, but suddenly everything became a truck - PT Cruisers, MPVs, even Subaru Outback sedans.
To make matters worse, the exception for trucks was intended to give work/fleet vehicles a pass, not personal use vehicles. So even a Suburban used as a family car should have counted as under the CAFE car averages, because it was not a business-owned fleet vehicle.
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- #8157 of 8694
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Re: Small car M.P.G. [ateixeira]
by boaz47
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Dec 02, 2008 (1:08 pm)
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Replying to: ateixeira (Dec 02, 2008 10:48 am)
I agree but you will still see and hear people that look to the government to solve all problems making impassioned excuses for CAFE and CARB. We should have small cars that could get a lot better mileage than what we have been offered but when all you have to do is meet some government standard why bother. I realize we might have had more Hummer like vehicles without CAFE but I am sure we would have had more small cars getting 60 and 70 MPG without it as well. Without CAFE I doubt if Honda, Subaru, or Nissan would have ever made a SUV. CAFE encouraged them to take a leap they might never have made without it. This is from a man that likes SUVs and Full size Pickups much more than their smaller counterparts. I like vehicles that can do real work like towing and hauling while providing a bit of comfort and isolation from the road.
Still my biggest beef with the "new" subcompacts is they aren't new and many aren't sub. They are the same old sub compacts that have become old in other parts of the world. They answered a problem in Asia or Europe that doesn't translate to US as well as it should.
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- #8158 of 8694
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Re: Small car M.P.G. [boaz47]
by ateixeira
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Dec 02, 2008 (1:21 pm)
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Replying to: boaz47 (Dec 02, 2008 1:08 pm)
I hear the new systems will have a sliding scale according to length and wheelbase, things like that.
All that will do is make cars bigger.
They should just offer lower tax rates for small engines. Encourage economy, not wastefullness.
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- #8159 of 8694
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Re: Small car M.P.G. [ateixeira]
by boaz47
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Dec 02, 2008 (5:30 pm)
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Replying to: ateixeira (Dec 02, 2008 1:21 pm)
How about letting the market decide? What if they simply made a few small cars and sold them for under 10k? Once that has been done couldn't we see what the people bought and let them adjust for the consumers preferences? I don't believe the American consumer hates small cars I only think they question the cost compared to what you get. A small boat costs only a fraction of what a large boat costs. A small plane costs only a portion of what a big plane costs. The same is true for houses, TV sets any number of things. But for some reason in cars they try to get almost as much for a sub compact as they do for a compact or even some bigger cars. I don't think we have to bribe anyone to buy a small car I think we only need to use the successful model Honda and Toyota used to introduce small cars into the market on the 60s and 70s. Sell them at a price that is a fraction of what a full sized car and people will snap them up as they did when imports first started gaining popularity in thins country. There were no tax breaks on early CVCC or early Civics. There were no tax breaks for early VW Bugs or Corollas. People bought them because they were less expensive and cheap to run.
We are a stubborn people and when they try to force us into one direction we simply move in another. That is why we got SUVs and People using a full sized truck as their main transportation in the first place.
CAFE tries to address the symptoms not the disease. Toss it out and let the manufacturers face their customers head on. Try it and see if it works and maybe we will have as many small cars as we did before CAFE. I remember when we had Renault, Fiat, Nissan, VW, Toyota, Honda, MG, TR, Cooper and any number of other small cars to choose from and it was the government that killed them. I simply don't think either the government of the manufacturers have bothered to see what the people want. They simply seem to think they know what we need.
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