Ask the Car People.SM


What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

9838 messages,  Last post on Feb 07, 2013 at 10:28 PM

You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum.

What is this discussion about? Nissan Versa, Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit, smart fortwo, MINI Cooper

Messages Page 760 of 984

#7591 of 9838 Re: I wonder [nippononly] by boaz47

May 07, 2008 (6:14 pm)

Replying to: nippononly (May 07, 2008 8:34 am)
Yes, part of what I should be lamenting here is just how cheap American buyers are, and how low their standards are!
 
The American buyer is only cheap when buying a cheap car. Put them in a mid sized or something other than an entry level sub compact and they option them out with wheels, sun roof, cruise control and navigation center. I do agree that factory upgraded wheels suck compared to after market offerings at better prices.
 
It is just that if you are looking for a economy car like a Yaris in most cases you aren't looking for upgrades. All you are interested in is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of fuel for the least amount out the door. If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? There is simply not all that much advantage in getting a sub compact for 17k if you are close with a mid sized with more options.
 
But after we get back from Colorado I still believe I will get a EV. For my weekly errands there is nothing more than 5 miles from me and the power useage will not be much more than a 150 watt bulb burning for 7 hours. If things don't level off I simply am not interested in a sub compact if they are planning on releasing plug in hybrids or even some Honda EVs by 2010 or 2011. If we are going to get stuck with a little car it might as well be one with real savings and not the stop gap that cars like the Fit and Smart are. As far as fuel mileage goes I can still remember car pooling with a guy in his Rabbit Diesel in 1989 and getting 40 MPG going to and from work commuting together. My neighbor was getting 49 MPG in his Metro not much later. 19 years later 39 doesn't seem like we have made much progress. But it does show people will give up mileage for comfort and safety.

#7592 of 9838 Re: I wonder [boaz47] by lilengineerboy

May 07, 2008 (6:24 pm)

Replying to: boaz47 (May 07, 2008 6:14 pm)
I think this statement:
It is just that if you are looking for a economy car like a Yaris in most cases you aren't looking for upgrades. All you are interested in is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of fuel for the least amount out the door. If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? There is simply not all that much advantage in getting a sub compact for 17k if you are close with a mid sized with more options.
 
And this one:
But it does show people will give up mileage for comfort and safety.
 
Are a little at odds with each other. The crux of your argument, which I agree with, is that there isn't enough savings in mileage to warrant going to a smaller vehicle. An example would be my Accord getting in the mid-30s while smaller vehicles only get in the upper 30s. I think people will give up most things for comfort and safety, it just so happens that there isn't enough of an increase in FE to justify the move to a sub-compact. If smaller vehicles were truly competitive in a mass market non-paranoia setting, people would be willing to pay for it.

#7593 of 9838 Re: I wonder [lilengineerboy] by boaz47

May 07, 2008 (8:29 pm)

Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 07, 2008 6:24 pm)
But it does show people will give up mileage for comfort and safety.
 
What I was trying to say is we had 50 MPG cars 20 years ago. The sub compact of today does not get better fuel mileage than they did. The reasoning I get from sub compact apoligests is that safety equipment and increased comfort had added weight and so I shouldn't expect better fuel mileage from today's econo-boxes. That was my point. The question I ask is why shouldn't I? 20 years ago my Ford 3/4 ton got 9 MPG no matter how you drove it or what you were hauling. My last Chevy 3/4 ton got 12 to 14. Newer car, heavier and safer and still gets better fuel mileage. My son had an old Bronco that got 9 to 11 miles to the gallon. My Tahoe gets 14 - 16. 20 years newer and gets better fuel mileage. I understand the brand new Tahoe hybrid does even better.
 
The sub compact manufacturers are simply making excuses for selling sub compacts that get compact or mid sized car fuel mileage. If the Rabbit and Metro and Justy were high mileage sub compacts that got better than 40 MPG why 20 years later do we get 15k sub compacts that get 35MPG?
 
We know plug in hybrids are on the way and maybe even some EVs that can be used for commuting. We know Honda is working hard on Fuel cells and we might even get some small diesels. So if fuel savings are our goal then my contention is the new small sub compacts don't deliver on the promise. Better than a F-150 but a F-150 does better than they did 20 years ago, not worse.
 
What I was saying about thongs leveling off is if fuel gets to 5 bucks a gallon it is still a bargain compared to Europe and once we adjusted to it we would want more than what the sub compacts we now have will offer. But if they want to stay in the public eye they will have to do better than 35 MPG. But I don't hold out much hope for a quality sub compact or micro car from VW. It will get great fuel mileage I am sure but you will get to know the service department by name and will only visit you car on weekends. Dependability isn't something we see a lot of in VWs in the US. Every time I pull up the annual JD powers Dependability I start at the bottom and always find VW within the first few makes. Kia has to be breathing a sigh of relief whe they realize they are rated more dependable than a VW.

#7594 of 9838 Re: I wonder [boaz47] by nippononly

May 07, 2008 (9:52 pm)

Replying to: boaz47 (May 07, 2008 6:14 pm)
"The American buyer is only cheap when buying a cheap car. Put them in a mid sized or something other than an entry level sub compact and they option them out with wheels, sun roof, cruise control and navigation center."
 
LOL!
 
Most popular Camry is the 4-cylinder LE, no roof, no NAV, and no "wheels" (although every succeeding year is a new race to see just how cheap they can make the "standard deluxe" wheel covers look! )
 
Ditto Accord, LX being the most popular trim in this case: no NAV, no roof, and no "wheels" (although their wheel covers generally look better than Toyota's!)
 
2 most popular cars in America.
 
Don't get me started on 3 and 4 (maybe soon to be 1 and 2): Civic and Corolla.
 
I wonder how many F-150 "King Ranch"es Ford sold?! Eddie Bauer Explorers?!
 
I have infinite faith in the ability of the American car buyer to be cheap.

#7595 of 9838 Re: I wonder [nippononly] by andre1969

May 08, 2008 (6:26 am)

Replying to: nippononly (May 07, 2008 9:52 pm)
Even further up the ranks, it seems like cheaper editions usually outsell the pricier ones by a wide margin. One exception that pops into my mind is the Chrysler 300 when it first came out. For awhile, 40% of them were the Hemi model. That left the 2.7 base, 3.5 Touring, and 3.5 Limited to scrap for the remaining 60%. In this case, while the Hemi didn't account for the majority of sales, it's a safe bet it was still the most popular trim level. I'm sure that's changed nowadays though!
 
With my Intrepid, the vast majority were base models (also known as "SE" after 2000). In this case, I imagine a lot of the cheap models were getting dumped into rental fleets and that biased the numbers. With the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis, most buyers would spring for the base model. Ditto the Century and Regal, although I dunno how it is with the LaCrosse these days. When the LeSabre was still around, most of them were Customs and not Limiteds, but again, I don't know how the blend is with the Lucerne.
 
It wasn't always this way, though. Back in the 80's and even the 70's, it seemed like the upper trim levels would often be the more popular sellers. For instance, starting in 1977, the Chevy Caprice started to outsell the Impala. While they had different names, they were really just different trim levels of the same car. Similarly, at Pontiac, the Bonneville started to outsell the Catalina, and by a wide margin. With Buick and Olds, I think it the nicer versions of the Delta and LeSabre usually outsold the cheaper ones. I'm sure it was different with cheaper, smaller cars, though. And in the later part of the 80's and early 90's, it seemed like the tides started shifting back, to the cheaper trim levels getting more of the sales.
 
I wonder if this was a reflection on consumer tastes, or just a result of dumping into fleets?
 
Oh, one of my coworkers recently bought an '08 Camry. She went for the cheap CE model, saying the LE was a waste of money. I dunno if it is or not...I haven't paid enough attention to the two to compare them.
 
With the Corolla, I wonder if the cheap CE outsells the LE? My uncle's '03 is a CE, but for what it is I always thought it was fairly well equipped. The only thing I really wish it had is power windows and a better seating position.

#7596 of 9838 Re: I wonder [andre1969] by boaz47

May 08, 2008 (12:26 pm)

Replying to: andre1969 (May 08, 2008 6:26 am)
But what ever people buy off the lot is not always represented by what they drive after they buy it. Look at the after market. These store are every where. I can't think of many cities that don't have two, three or four tire and wheel stores in them. I have never had a car that was bone stock except a commuter or grocery getter. My weekend car or favorite car has always had different wheels and tires. In most cases it has a sound system upgrade and at least cold air and maybe a cat back exhaust. And that is reflected by what most manufacturers are having to offer stock. How many people option out for manual windows and no air any more? In another forum we have discovered that a basic car doesn't have to come in a manual anymore. more than 90 percent of these little commuters seem to be sold as automatics so at least the American consumer doesn't cheap out on their transmission choices because in most cases they pay more for the automatic.
 
I just believe what people consider cheap is that American consumer tend too expect more car for more money and in the case of sub compacts that is frustrating. Sure they will pay more for the Mini Cooper but that is because it represents more than transportation. They aren't willing to pay Mini Copper prices for a Yaris because it has a different image.
 
look at the car comercials and see what Madison Avenue considers important. You advertise to the wants of the consumer and it seems as if People want things like a voice command radio far more than a hand cranked window, manual seats adjusting entry level car with no air and no Cruise control.
 
Andre you seem to hang with a crowd that likes some of the older cars. what is the more popular and what is more sought for? Looking at some of the car auctions I see people are willing pay more for a Chevy SS that a Stock Malibu.

#7597 of 9838 Re: I wonder [boaz47] by andre1969

May 08, 2008 (1:04 pm)

Replying to: boaz47 (May 08, 2008 12:26 pm)
Andre you seem to hang with a crowd that likes some of the older cars. what is the more popular and what is more sought for? Looking at some of the car auctions I see people are willing pay more for a Chevy SS that a Stock Malibu.
 
Well, at the Mopar show I go to in Carlisle, I'd say the most popular car out there on the field is the Dart/Valiant/Duster. So there ya have it, the small car reigns supreme! (hey, it was considered a compact back in its day. ) I'd say the Barracuda/Challenger are a close second in popularity (again, another compact!). Midsized musclecars, like the Charger, GTX, Roadrunner, etc, are also really popular.
 
With the Ford show, the Mustang probably has the best turnout, and with GM it's the Camaro. So there ya have it, small cars rule even on the old car circuit!

#7598 of 9838 Re: I wonder [boaz47] by podred

May 08, 2008 (1:31 pm)

Replying to: boaz47 (May 07, 2008 6:14 pm)
It is just that if you are looking for a economy car like a Yaris in most cases you aren't looking for upgrades. All you are interested in is getting from point A to point B using the least amount of fuel for the least amount out the door.
 
If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? There is simply not all that much advantage in getting a sub compact for 17k if you are close with a mid sized with more options.
 
 
As far as getting from point A to point B, I agree, people with this mentality are passengers that just happen to sit behind the steering wheel. By this I mean people that view their cars as a form of transportation. Everyday mundane plain vanilla transportation. They want to get in, start it and go, paying as little attention to driving as they can get away with. For them it's more about cup holders, eating while driving, talking on the phone while driving. Anything to keep themselves entertained. Like smashing into the car in front of them because they were busy looking at the floor having just dropped their french fries.
 
If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? That's easy, because small sporty performance cars are a lot of fun if you are a Driver. The very reason I have so much invested in my Mini Cooper S is because I'm a driver. I enjoy driving and the fun it brings to those of us who are not so stressed out that life is a handful of anti-depressants every morning.
 
In addition, my relatively underpowered Yaris 2 door hatchback is also a lot of fun, it's so short that parking is a pleasure, and one can actually zip around at a brisk pace. At that price point it's like getting a deal at your favorite store. Yes it's no Porsche, but one does not expect it to be. After all it sips fuel, costs next to nothing to insure, and the tires properly maintained will last an extremely long time. Now take that car and add a thousand or two in options from Toyota (if they offered them) and it would sell an even greater numbers,as much like myself there are a lot of small car lovers out there. Bigger? I don't want bigger. I have no use for bigger. Why do I want do drive an ugly or plain 4 door family car? I'm not bashing those who do, as to each their own. The argument is valid in the case of the person that actually Needs the space. However there are many of us that would much rather have a nimble fun short wheelbase car. Until you actually owned one and driven it for a period of time, you have no idea just how much fun they can be.

#7599 of 9838 Re: I wonder [podred] by boaz47

May 08, 2008 (4:32 pm)

Replying to: podred (May 08, 2008 1:31 pm)
If you are willing to spend more money why get a sub compact? That's easy, because small sporty performance cars are a lot of fun if you are a Driver.
 
I say horse feathers. I have had small sub compacts and they may feel sporty but they aren't all that sporty in reality. When Honda came out with the Accord was in a mid sized? No it was smaller than a Civic is today. Where did all the drivers go when it got bigger? They went with it. For a while the Accord may have been the number one selling Sedan in the US and then the Camry took its place. So by the numbers what do drivers really want? The average driver is not an enthusiast by the standards of this group. And the Yaris is not an enthusiasts car by the standards of most enthusiasts magazines. At least Car and Driver, Motortrend and Sports Compact car doesn't seem to spend much time on them while they will wax poetic over many other cars.
 
I am not saying there is anything wrong with preferring econo boxes. I am saying they simply are not much of an improvement over what we have had for years. Sure they seem like they are sporty but when we go to the road tracks and watch the real sporty sedans race we don't see a lot of Yari? Yaris'? The Civic, Focus, Mazda3 have been a standard in sport compacts for a long time and I don't see the Yaris surplanting any of those either at the 1/8 or 1/4 mile races or any of the road courses. But I will admit sporty is more than a word to me or a feeling in your back pockets. Sporty is not taking a 15k Yaris and spending enough money to make it run with a stock RSX. Sporty is bringing your ride to the track on Saturday and placing it against the other guy. It doesn't matter if you run in the drags, road course or Autocross/Solo sporty is more than how it feels to you.
 
The whole question comes down to the title of this forum. What is wrong with these "new" subcompacts? The answer is, they aren't all that new, except for the name. A Sub compact should get much better fuel mileage than a compact. It should cost a lot less and in many cases this is simply not the case. Just my opinion of course.
 
Andre,
 
Let us put it this way. When a car sells at Barret Jackson which model brings the most interest? The slant Six or the hemi Cuda? The standard Mustang or the GT? The Camaro or the Camaro SS or better yet the Z-28? I go to car shows and I know the answer.

#7600 of 9838 boaz by nippononly

May 08, 2008 (4:42 pm)

your point kind of meanders around there, but I think what you are missing in podred's post is this: small light cars have a natural handling advantage by dint of their size and weight that bigger heavier cars have to compensate for with extra hardware under the chassis and much larger tires, etc. Of course, best-sellers like the Camry DON'T put that stuff in, with the result that for $5K less the Yaris outhandles the Camry.
 
On the flip side, subcompacts today are not like the ones you remember: they have most of the ride comfort and interior space of the larger cars you prefer. That is the main thing that sets apart today's subcompacts from the breed of the past. The natural handling advantage the small cars have over the large is just a bonus (that bonus continues to pay you back over the life of the car too, in the form of lower insurance rates, lower maintenance costs (compare the cost of 14 and 15 inch tires to the prices of the 16 and 17 inch H- and V-rated tires they needlessly put on family sedans these days), and yes, some gas savings too).

Messages Page 760 of 984

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement