You are here: Forums Automotive News & Views What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

8694 messages,  Last post on Dec 07, 2009 at 6:51 PM

You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires

What is this discussion about? Nissan Versa, Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit, smart fortwo, MINI Cooper

#7523 of 8694 Re: Exciting cars..... what? [qbrozen] by boaz47 Apr 22, 2008 (4:19 pm)
Replying to: qbrozen (Apr 22, 2008 9:30 am) Did I miss something? You do know there are still European cars sold here, right?   Yes I do and maybe in the heat of the moment I wasn't clear. The US consumer buys as may cars as they do in Europe. And the post I was responding to was about all of the "interesting cars" they have in Europe and they have proven to be very interesting but not well received. The Renaults for one and the Peugeot for another. The Fiat I may have liked but it was a flop here as well. The Alfa looked good on paper but couldn't make it here. Some of these cars sell well where they were designed to sell but there is no reason for the American consumer to change their preferences simply because they are different from other people in other nations. I may like some of those same vehicles on a personal level but if it isn't as dependable as a toaster and as simple to operate the consumers they are trying to sell them to don't seem to be interested. Any company worth its salt has to design and develop their product for their customers based on their wants. To say the customer is stupid for not liking a product that doesn't meet their needs or wants is arrogant and elitist. IMHO.
#7524 of 8694 Re: Exciting cars..... what? [boaz47] by lilengineerboy Apr 22, 2008 (5:34 pm)
Replying to: boaz47 (Apr 22, 2008 3:43 pm) Still are you saying you are willing to take China's life style as an example?   No, just saying that they own huge amounts of our debt, are an economic superpower, and their standard of living is improving, which isn't the same direction ours is going.   The fact that we like what we like doesn't make the American driver stupid.   No, not stupid, I think ignorant is a better word that stupid. I think Americans were told what they liked, what success meant, and how to make it look like they achieved more than they had. I have no desire to own a Cadillac, a Lincoln or a Lexus, nor do I need a 4000 sq ft house to heat,cool, and clean.   I have been to some of those very places you may be thinking of. And living on top of each other is hardly what I consider civilized. Ever been shoved into a underground train in Japan? At least in London you get to sit down on the underground most of the time.   I was thinking about Santa Barbara/Goleta, San Luis Obispo, Ventura/'nard and Mountain View.   Whatever our short comings more people want to move here than want to move to China or any where else as far as I know. So if we are stupid then there are a lot of people that wish to be just as stupid as we are.   This may be true. I don't think the US is as popular as you think. India has incredible amounts of opportunity and a culture that thrives on that, Mexico's standard of living is increasing to the point where its not that big a benefit to manufacture there vs the US, etc.   I think my generation and the ones that follow don't have their hopes and dreams tied to huge cars and huge houses as a sign of success. I have nothing directly against the subcompact other than it doesn't buy me much in fuel savings over the Accord, but if I was back on the central coast, I would do what was in my power to pick up a Mini convertible, or maybe a 3 series convertible (the E36 and earlier are listed as sub-compacts). Replies to this message: boaz47 (Apr 22, 2008 9:28 pm) bpizzuti (Apr 23, 2008 2:18 am)
#7525 of 8694 Re: Exciting cars..... what? [lilengineerboy] by boaz47 Apr 22, 2008 (9:28 pm)
Replying to: lilengineerboy (Apr 22, 2008 5:34 pm) I think my generation and the ones that follow don't have their hopes and dreams tied to huge cars and huge houses as a sign of success. I have nothing directly against the subcompact other than it doesn't buy me much in fuel savings over the Accord, but if I was back on the central coast, I would do what was in my power to pick up a Mini convertible, or maybe a 3 series convertible (the E36 and earlier are listed as sub-compacts).   None the less none of that makes the decisions of Asians or Europeans any more valid than the ones we as US consumers make. It does not make the owner of a Diesel Ford in Europe smarter because they drive a small car and pay a higher percentage of their taxes to do so than it does for our consumers. That was the original implication made.   Post 7519 The average American car buyer is stupid.    And Your Score Based On Statement Above....    Points 10 = Accuracy (yes) 10 = Succinct (yes) 10 = Discouraging (very) 10 = On Target (absolutely) 10 = Indisputable (yes) 10 = Surprising (no) 10 = Subject to Change (no) 10 = Frustrating (very) 10 = Dangerous (definitely) 10 = Funny (no)    Congratulations, a perfect 100! Sad, but true...   I find that offensive. I know American bashing seems to be the thing to do but if we did the same thing to everyone else with a lower standard of living than ours it would be called prejudiced. What is wrong with wanting a machine that is dependable and gets us from point A to point B every time without a bunch of quirks to take into account? If that is what the American consumer wants who has the right to call them stupid? Different strokes for different folks it used to be. Replies to this message: bpizzuti (Apr 23, 2008 2:18 am)
#7526 of 8694 Re: Exciting cars..... what? [boaz47] by bpizzuti Apr 23, 2008 (2:18 am)
Replying to: boaz47 (Apr 22, 2008 9:28 pm) What is wrong with wanting a machine that is dependable and gets us from point A to point B every time without a bunch of quirks to take into account?   When getting from A to be is typically a 5-10 mile trip, and the person wants a Suburban for it as the drive it alone 90% of the time, not towing anything, and leaving the interior otherwise empty, I call that a quirk. Especially since Chevys aren't all that dependable.
#7527 of 8694 Autoweek by nippononly Apr 23, 2008 (7:35 am)
has a big Earth Day section in the most recent issue, and the very first car in it is the new Verve/Fiesta.   It says that American carmakers are still operating under the presumption that we will not buy hatchbacks, but really, isn't there a ton of evidence to the contrary? The Matrix has sold well for five years, the Fit is selling well, Toyota had to boost production of the Yaris hatchback due to insufficient supply, just to name a few.   So they are developing a sedan off the Fiesta hatchback design, which is always a formula for an ugly sedan IMO. I just hope they sell the Fiesta hatchback too. Replies to this message: andre1969 (Apr 23, 2008 5:32 pm) nippononly (Apr 23, 2008 8:35 pm) british_rover (Apr 24, 2008 5:43 am) podred (Apr 24, 2008 11:39 am)
#7528 of 8694 Re: Autoweek [nippononly] by andre1969 Apr 23, 2008 (5:32 pm)
Replying to: nippononly (Apr 23, 2008 7:35 am) I never was much of a hatchback fan, for the simple reason that in the size of car I normally prefer, they simply don't make sense. Generally, the bigger the car, the less advantage you get from a hatchback, and the more ungainly it looks; unless it's one of those styles where they try to make it look like a regular coupe or sedan.   But with smaller cars, often it seems just the opposite. Once you get small enough, sedans and coupes start looking awkward, and the hatchback style just makes more sense.   Now comparing the Yaris hatchback to the sedan, I think the hatch is kind of a goofy looking little thing. But it's also a lot smaller than the sedan, and I'm sure that if they tried to make a sedan that small, it would look horrible. And be pretty useless.   I kinda like the Versa. If I was going to get one of those, I'd take the hatch over the sedan. Those aren't exactly subcompact, though. Replies to this message: nippononly (Apr 23, 2008 8:35 pm) british_rover (Apr 24, 2008 5:43 am) podred (Apr 24, 2008 11:39 am)
#7529 of 8694 Re: Autoweek [andre1969] by nippononly Apr 23, 2008 (8:35 pm)
Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 23, 2008 5:32 pm) Well, in 2000 Toyota took a rather nice-looking hatchback (the Canadian Echo) and hacked the back end to bits, pasted a trunk on, and sold it in the U.S. as the Echo sedan. This is why the Echo looks so darn odd from most angles except the front. That was a bad way to design a sedan.   In 2005 Toyota had an American team design the Yaris sedan and a French team design the hatchback. Even though they share a name and a powertrain, there's a lot that the two cars don't have in common.   The European design influence is clearly apparent (to me) in that the interior of the hatchback is more stylish and better outfitted than the sedan.   The original Fiesta we got here, as well as all the European Fiestas since then, have been hatchbacks. The car is designed to be a hatchback. So is the Verve/2011 Fiesta. They will Echo-ize it, I'm sure, in order to produce a 4-door sedan for the U.S. and then in a couple of years they will wring their hands and say "why oh why did we bother to bring a B-class car to the U.S.?? Everybody knows Americans only buy gigantic cars!!". Which isn't true at all, Americans just know an ugly car when they see one. Which is why I hope they bring the 3- and 5-door Fiestas over as well, even if they DO insist on selling a sedan. Replies to this message: british_rover (Apr 24, 2008 5:43 am)
#7530 of 8694 Re: Autoweek [nippononly] by british_rover Apr 24, 2008 (5:43 am)
Replying to: nippononly (Apr 23, 2008 8:35 pm) You would think they would have finally figured this out with all the good looking hatchback like cars, even if they don't call them that, selling well in the US today.   Ford still isn't very bright though.
#7531 of 8694 Re: Autoweek [andre1969] by podred Apr 24, 2008 (11:39 am)
Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 23, 2008 5:32 pm) Now comparing the Yaris hatchback to the sedan, I think the hatch is kind of a goofy looking little thing. But it's also a _lot smaller_ than the sedan, and I'm sure that if they tried to make a sedan that small, it would look horrible. And be pretty useless.   Comparing specs reveal the Yaris 2 door vs 4 door are the same size. It's the styling that makes them look different. Size is equal on the inside, outside, width, interior shoulder and hip room etc. The only difference is the sedan wheelbase is an extra 2 inches long to support the added 18" of body length for the trunk. So if you need the extra luggage space the sedan is the one.   Conversely if you want a fun car with a distinctive European look, the 2 Door Hatchback is the car. In fact it's becoming very popular in the US, as it's the only Euro Style 2 door hatchback at such an affordable price. This is why Toyota just announced their second increase in production numbers to keep up with demand. After all now that gas is $4.00 per gallon, its' a great car for all around use.   It's a shame that Honda passed up the chance to get in on this sector, as a 2 door Fit would sell very well here, especially since Honda has a great performance image. Besides 2 doors have always been sportier than four doors. The 4 door has always been a family sedan type of image. Not exactly sporty.   I know our local Honda dealer well, and he simply cannot get enough Civic coupes. He also agrees that if he had 2 door Fit's to offer, he predicts that they would outsell the Civic coupe 2 to 1. With price being one of many reasons, he says that the Honda dealers in the region have been asking for a 2 door, since news of the Fit first surfaced over two years ago. However much like Toyota, Honda is a very conservative company (look how long it took them to get their Mini Van to market) and decided they would only build one version of the Fit. Ignoring what has been, at least here in CA, a huge demand for 2 door Civics for years.
#7532 of 8694 press request by kirstie_h HOST Apr 25, 2008 (9:41 am)
A reporter would like to talk with recent buyers of the Honda Fit, Ford Focus, the Smart car and other subcompacts. Please respond to jfallonedmunds.com with your daytime contact information and a few words about your experience no later than Tuesday, April 29, 2008. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon Corporate Communications Edmunds Inc.

You are here: Forums Automotive News & Views What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?