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Automotive News & Views What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?
8673 messages, Last post on Dec 01, 2009 at 9:17 PM
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Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 18, 2008 11:02 am) Toyota: A very nice driving van. Great power, very refined in terms of the category known as NVH, noise, vibration, and harshness (ride quality). When I set aside my personal dislike for the styling of the Toyota, I found it more comfortable with the best ergonomics. In terms of ease of moving around inside without opening any doors (as though one is parked at a rest stop, it's raining and you don't want to get out) it's far superior to the Honda. The ride quality was controlled, not too soft, not to harsh. They have obviously spent a lot of time on this, as the wind noise is also down to nil. at freeway speeds. Honda: I love the looks of this van, especially the subtle changes made for 2008. I also prefer the more sports oriented driving experience and the taught suspension. However that said, I believe it works against them as most soccer moms and non car enthusiast dads would find it too stiff, and the steering too responsive. You must drive this van (what a novel concept), as opposed to the Toyota which is clearly designed for the Americans (who as I like to say, are merely passengers that happen to be sitting in the drivers seat). A scary thought really, but one I witness everyday as I drive a lot and watch these so called "drivers" wander all over the road. They are so busy eating, drinking, talking on the cell phone and turning their heads to the right to maintain eye contact with the passenger they are speaking to while hurtling down the road, oblivious to the fact that they are behind the steering wheel. Then much like another comment made here, I believe that Toyota has such a strong reputation and brand loyalty, that many people go with that. |
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while YMMV, my experience has ALWAYS been that Toyota dealers are more willing to deal on price than Honda dealers. I recently got internet quotes from 3 dealers on a Fit Sport MT and none made an offer below MSRP. They called that a "discount", because they had them marked up $1-2K. So Toyota dealers will deal more, and consequently Yaris and Sienna have more sales than Fit and Odyssey. And Fit and Odyssey will have better resale in 3 years and in 5...... |
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Replying to: podred (Apr 17, 2008 10:27 am) And why do we have to wait so long when they finally do decide to bring them across? Or in such limited engine options? Why can't we get the new diesel engines the same time Europe does? But alas, I'll be in the market this summer for a new car. I've promised my car to my daughter and drive about 40k miles a year, mostly rural (freeway and 2 lane). So I'm looking for a bit of comfort, A/C, low total cost of ownership, high fuel economy, reliability, and few stops at the shop for scheduled maintenance. A diesel rabbit would be ideal. I could wait until the fall for the diesel Jetta, but it will probably start out in limited supplies and only on very upscale s (especially here in the midwest). Heck, I can't even find a 5M Fit or any Corollas in stock locally. |
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Replying to: podred (Apr 17, 2008 10:27 am) As soon as the general public is wiling to pay Mini prices for a Focus (or "Fiesta"), it can start to happen, but I just don't see a lot of $24k Foci running around (as much as I would enjoy it). As far as bringing over FoE vehicles, I would like to remind the forum members of the Ford Cortina, the Mecury Capri (the early 70s, and the 90s), the Merkur Scorpio and XR4Ti (which spanked the BMW 318 of the time in just about every measure), the original Escort and Fiesta, and one dear to my heart, the Contique twins, none of which were exactly out of the ball park home runs, although some did better than others. We will see how the Ford Transit goes, and they new Fiesta. Even other brands have had issues conforming to US codes and standards, remember the HUGE bumpers on European cars in the 70s and 80s? I also think this whole mythical "they make it there so they should sell it here too since they already make it there" thing is a bit silly too. The European driving experience is very different than in the US. I think there are very few people who drive 30 miles each way to work, there is less travel on huge interstates and more travel on rural country roads. They are designed for a different user population. Even the US Honda Accord is very different from the rest of the world. FoE has very different requirements than FNA. I think this is changing slowly, but a Mondeo is like $40k, the Contour was $20k and the Fusion is about the same so they have more to work with in terms of design. The Europeans are less legislative so there are fewer requirements and fewer lawsuits (that said, some of their crash safety requirements are silly). Now if you are saying you don't care for the styling of some FordNA vehicles vs FoE counterparts (like the new Focus or the '08 Taurus), that I can understand, but the majority of the motoring public isn't willing to give up their higher torque motors and 6 speed automatics for the European driving experience. That said I do have an idea of what it is, and I hate to admit it but I believe that the "average" buyer of cars in that segment in the US could care less about the car. They are buying price, cup holders, colors, and related nonsense. Wow! Look at this car Linda, it has 10 cup holders.......sold. This is even more true than previously thought. One of the highest correlations with JDPowers satisfaction studies is number of cup-holders.
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (Apr 19, 2008 4:55 am) This is even more true than previously thought. One of the highest correlations with JDPowers satisfaction studies is number of cup-holders. Funny you should mention that. One of the reasons the early MINIs scored so poorly on JDPowers surveys was the poor cup holders.  That and the rough ride. I guess some how people thought a ultra short wheel base, light vehicle with at the very least sporting intentions in base form should have a soft ride.   The average American car buyer is stupid. |
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (Apr 19, 2008 4:55 am) Very good point, the reason I omitted it from my entry, is that I know enthusiasts like myself that would not let that stop them, providing the performance was similar to the Cooper S I have. It's one of my favorite cars, and yet there are many naysayers out there that argue it's too much larger and heavier than the original, and I'm aware of this because I own one of the originals, which in my opinion should not be compared. My 2005 Mini S has welcome creature comforts, a great audio system, although I hardly ever use it, due to the beautiful exhaust note! Back to pricing, Your point is well taken as we enthusiasts are in the minority and love to drive, not dread to, like so many Americans. Regarding your points on the Merkur, and others (which bring back memories) I agree with you. The only point where I differ from your take is the European driving experience, and not that it isn't different as I do agree on that point. However, I have spent a lot of time there as my family is from Germany, and therefore I have driven quite a bit there as well. Yes the terrain, the typical length of a drive, roads, etc. are all quite different than the typical US driving pattern. And yet the fact that remains that there are a large group of enthusiasts on either side of the "pond". It's just that the ratios are so much different. On a per capita basis the largest group is in the UK and other countries. While I could enjoy a lively debate on this for hours, the facts remain (specifics aside) as you have identified them. Too many differences between the two mindsets and based on this fact, I agree with you completely. Cheers!
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Replying to: british_rover (Apr 19, 2008 6:20 am) And Your Score Based On Statement Above.... Points 10 = Accuracy (yes) 10 = Succinct (yes) 10 = Discouraging (very) 10 = On Target (absolutely) 10 = Indisputable (yes) 10 = Surprising (no) 10 = Subject to Change (no) 10 = Frustrating (very) 10 = Dangerous (definitely) 10 = Funny (no) Congratulations, a perfect 100! Sad, but true...
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Replying to: podred (Apr 19, 2008 3:24 pm) The answer being American car companies that persisted in wanting to sell land yachts for the past 60 years, and therefore had to convince Americans that they were the best thing in the world. |
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Replying to: podred (Apr 19, 2008 3:24 pm)
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Replying to: explorerx4 (Apr 19, 2008 6:39 pm) |
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