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Automotive News & Views What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?
8564 messages, Last post on Oct 23, 2009 at 10:37 AM
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Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 07, 2008 5:19 am) Your V-6 sedan used about 25% more gas than my Matrix would have, and the Matrix would also have provided good seating for four and access to the cooler in back. And if you all could have fit in the Echo, you would have saved another 30% in fuel. The SUV used 125% more fuel on that trip than the Echo would have. Wow.
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Replying to: nippononly (Apr 07, 2008 7:51 am) Waitaminute...if I'm doing the math right, then presuming the Xterra's averaging 20 mpg, wouldn't that mean the Echo would be averaging about 45 mpg? I don't think I'd be getting 45 mpg given the circumstances...speeds averaging 65-75 mph with occasional bursts up to 80-85 (the 5-speed automatic in that Xterra keeps the revs down and makes you feel like you're going slower than you are, so it's easy to lose track of speed). Constant use of the a/c. And three people on board with a boatload of luggage. To do another comparison, about a year ago, I drove my uncle's '03 Corolla up to PA and back. I drove it pretty gently, just about pure highway driving, no a/c use, and averaged about 37.4 mpg. Last October I made the same trip in my Intrepid, and got about 31 mpg. So in this case, the Intrepid used about 20% more fuel than the Corolla. Which sounds pretty substantial on the surface...until you realize that it comes out to a difference of about 1.1 gallons per 200 miles I also did that trip in my '85 Silverado the following weekend. It got about 18 mpg. 
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After reading the two posts above this one, I'm enjoying this new direction in our dialog. It would be great to continue this discussion taking into consideration the points below. Consider this, a comparison of: "Cars We Own" from the list of subcompacts being discussed in this thread, as compared to the "Other Cars We Own or have Owned". Therefore we would be reading _True Stories_ from the people that own them as opposed to speculation based on road tests or other second hand sources of info. Especially since as we all know there is a huge difference between reading the road tests, and actually owning the vehicle and living with it. It's this very type of dialog which would enlighten all of us as to the "real differences" the pros and cons. After all there is much more to consider here than "just the mileage factor". Perhaps we call it functionality or useability or some such term that clearly identifies how, where and why, we are using the various "other" vehicles. Ones that may be larger and not as fuel efficient as the "new subcompacts we own". By continuing the discussion in this direction, it would create a very stimulating environment from which to draw new ideas. Cheers! .... |
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Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 07, 2008 8:31 am) I am confident that with constant A/C use, at those speeds, with your three buddies, I would see 45 mpg and in fact I am fairly confident I could beat that figure. That was a conservative estimate for the sake of discussion. Now would your three adult male buddies be happy on a long trip in the Echo? I would think the two in the back would be wanting to switch with the two in the front at fairly short intervals! So the Matrix was a better example for group trips. But for long trips with just you or just you and a passenger aboard, the Echo has enough interior space to get comfortable and save a bunch of gas. And with the new Yaris, even that caveat has been erased - as small as it looks, the back seat is now much more spacious than the Echo's was. They added a few inches to the wheelbase (and 200 pounds to the curb weight) in order to accomplish that. Footnote: the Corolla's EPA numbers make it appear that its mileage is almost identical to the Yaris/Echo's, but in real world use the smaller models are producing some fantastic figures and very few below 35, whereas many Corolla drivers report much lower numbers. It is much harder in the Corolla to get those 40-plus mpg numbers, even though both are rated around 35 (both were previously rated 41) for highway use. So Corolla is not your best example for how efficient small cars can be, even though it probably is the most efficient in the compact class. the thing is, there's a whole (BETTER  ) class below compacts...
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Replying to: nippononly (Apr 07, 2008 11:33 am) How does the Civic "real world" mileage compare to its EPA estimates? I don't know what it's rated at these days, but I remember the 2006-2007 numbers had it at 30 city/40 highway for the automatic. I remember being really impressed by that. While it's really not much better than the 30/38 my uncle's Corolla was rated at, I found the Civic to be a lot more comfortable. I've sat in stuff like the Yaris, xA, Fit, Echo, etc at car shows, and they're just too cramped for my tastes, so I think the Civic is about as small as I could reasonably go. One of my coworkers briefly had a 2009 Corolla S. I sat behind the wheel one day, and it definitely felt more comfortable than my uncle's '03. Legroom was still tight, but the seat felt more substantial, and a bit higher off the floor, which helped. The steering wheel also telescoped, which was nice. Unfortunately, my coworker went through pickup truck withdrawal with the Corolla. He traded an '04 Tundra on it, and just couldn't get used to it. So last week he traded on a brand-new Tundra with the 5.7!  Oh, I do have to confess a certain fondness for the Nissan Versa. I still like the driving position of the Civic better, though. The Versa would be an awesome car to be chauferred around in, though. Backseat legroom felt a lot better than many midsized and even some so-called full-sized cars! |
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Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 07, 2008 12:44 pm) But the real improvement is the back seat if you get the optional interior package(comfort package or similar, IIRC). This gives you a reclining and sliding rear seat that is far more spacious when slid back PLUS has more headroom as well than in a Matix(!). It fits four adults quite comfortably, which is astounding. There's no shoulder room, so essentially a 2+2. Quite an amazing little car, and in Canada and elsewhere, where they sell the 4 door version(why not in the U.S.???), it is a far better can than the Fit/Jazz for many people. P.S. The reason the Fit/Jazz sells so well in Europe is that it can be had with a better TDI engine than the Yaris. Most everyone buys this model. In the U.S., the Fit is kind of a red headed stepchild. Not quite frugal enough, not quite inexpensive enough.
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Replying to: andre1969 (Apr 07, 2008 12:44 pm)
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Replying to: plekto (Apr 07, 2008 1:13 pm)
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Replying to: lemmer (Apr 08, 2008 7:58 am) We have even taken entire road trips with 2 families in the van. Once to Dutch Wonderland in PA, and twice to Ocean City, MD. On both occasions we would have had to take 2 compact cars to fit both familes, because at least 7 people went on each of those 3 trips. The van returns about 26-28mpg with a heavy load like that, so I doubt even a pair of Prius hybrids would beat the people carrying efficiency of a loaded minivan. |
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Replying to: nippononly (Apr 07, 2008 11:33 am) This statement above is somewhat contrary to my personal experience. However as we all know, driving habits play a big part, in the mileage returned. I have both an 07 Corollla and 08 Yaris hatchback. The Corolla has 10 k on the odometer, and Yaris has 7 k, both automatics. Due to the fact that both of these cars are far more comfortable that they often get credit for, the four of us, Mom, Dad, son, and daugther were riding along, thus the same load in both cars. The kids are 6 & 8 yrs old. I tested them carefully (on the same 255 mile round trip route to grandma's house) while duplicating my driving style as close as possible to negate "driver influence" . Also just for sake of satisfying my (admittedly OCD personality  ) I performed these two comparison runs using the same fuel pump at the same gas station to fill up immediately before the test and immediately after the test. One run was made on Saturday, the next run on Sunday. Both in clear weather and maintaining an average speed on the freeway of 72mph. About 21 miles of each trip was in city driving, the balance on the freeway. The result? Corolla trip mpg = 39 Yaris trip mpg = 46 Numbers that I'm very happy with. Finally after it's all said and done, my long time experience with over 14 different Toyota models, I've owned over a log period of time, from Avalons, Highlanders, Tundras, Camrys, Corolla's and now Yaris, the bottom line is this in the one make (of many in my collection) that continuously costs the least to own over a period of five years or longer. |
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