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What is "wrong" with these new subcompacts?

9838 messages,  Last post on Feb 07, 2013 at 10:28 PM

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What is this discussion about? Nissan Versa, Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit, smart fortwo, MINI Cooper

Messages Page 683 of 985

#6812 of 9838 Re: Versa is HOT [boaz47] by nippononly

Jan 04, 2008 (11:23 pm)

Replying to: boaz47 (Jan 04, 2008 9:03 pm)
Actually, it's about six months worth of F-series sales in 2007. But that's not the point - some really great cars don't even register as a blip on the radar screen of F-series sales. Corvette? Was outsold by every single individual one of the models I mentioned. Aura, the '07 NACOTY? Was also outsold by every single one except the Fit.
 
When Honda finally ramped up production of the Fit the last 4 months, sales really shot up. I expect it will sell at least 50% better in '08 than it did in '07 (as long as they can maintain the new production level). At which point it will handily outsell Aura along with all the other subcompacts.
 
And Yaris might see a sales bump in '08 too, as the new Corolla arrives in February, and we will probably consequently see real-world transaction prices for that model go up, nudging more buyers towards Yaris.
 
And how's this for a statistic? Aveo was the Chevy car model with the highest year-over-year sales increase in '07!

#6813 of 9838 Re: Versa is HOT [nippononly] by boaz47

Jan 05, 2008 (5:01 pm)

Replying to: nippononly (Jan 04, 2008 11:23 pm)
"And how's this for a statistic? Aveo was the Chevy car model with the highest year-over-year sales increase in '07! "
 
And what percent of total sales does that represent? All I see in a Versa Hatchback is a Sentra sized vehicle with a hatchback. I don't see a sub compact that much smaller than what we already have and I don't see another small 108 HP entry level car. The Versa is so close to the Sentra I size and weight I don't see anything new there. The fuel mileage is about the same even if the city mileage is a bit better for the Versa highway mileage is listed as the same on Edmunds. The base price for the Sentra is even pretty close and of course you have the advantage of being able to order a Se-r spec V if you need more scoot. So just what makes the Sub Compact Versa so different from what we had already? Remember in the beginning I said Civic and Corolla sized vehicles are about as small as Americans seem to like in any real great numbers.
 
If we look at the Civic the base price is $14,819 with a Invoice of 13,800 or so? I get a car everyone trusts. It gets 26-34 Mpg and it has 140 HP with a 128 Pft of torque. The Fit is 21 inches shorter and has a WB 8 inches shorter but it is only a bit less than 100 pounds lighter and only has 109 HP. Plus it prices out at $13,900 and an invoice of 13, 400 or so. It once again get 28-34 MPG so just what are the major differences between what we already had and they are now offering us?
 
In dog show they couldn't even cover the spread between standard and miniture to distinguish the breed. Only the Mini and the Smart qualify as new sub compacts in the truest meaning of the word. Everything else is simply a different skin on the same horse.
 
To jump from a base Accord to a base Civic is 4 MPG city and 3 MPG highway and an additional 37 HP at a cost of $5,000.00. If sub compacts are to make an impression on the consumer they should offer something better in relation to the next step up. As they stand today they simply don't offer that much.

#6814 of 9838 Re: Versa is HOT [boaz47] by hudsonthedog

Jan 05, 2008 (5:49 pm)

Replying to: boaz47 (Jan 05, 2008 5:01 pm)
The Versa measures 94/95 cubic feet of interior space, the Sentra is at 97 cubic feet, the Altima is 101 and the Maxima is 104...seems like there's a space between each of them. Vehicles are measured by INTERIOR space. The best mileage Versa is rated at 27 (city), the Sentra is at 25, the Altima (not counting the hybrid) is 23, and the Maxima is 19. That's 8-9% between each of the four-cylinder cars.
 
The Versa is smaller than the Sentra...significantly enough. It uses a larger engine than any of the competition as well.
 
According to the standard definition for a subcompact (the same measurement that's been used for over 30 years), the Chevrolet Aveo5, Honda Civic Coupe, Mini Cooper, Nissan Altima Coupe, Scion tC and xD, Suzuki SX4, and Toyota Yaris hatchback are all subcompacts (between 85 and 99 cubic feet of interior and trunk space). The Smart falls into a seperate category of "two seaters."

#6816 of 9838 Re: Versa is HOT [hudsonthedog] by boaz47

Jan 05, 2008 (7:53 pm)

Replying to: hudsonthedog (Jan 05, 2008 5:49 pm)
well if you consider the Altima Coupe with 175 HP a traditional Sub Compact then there is nothing wrong with the new sub compacts. The fact that I could get a V-6 in that same Sub Compact is even more delightful. And I never had a problem with the tC being a sub compact as well. A sub compact like the Altima coupe weighing in at a ton and a half is a nice size car. The xD is just what the xA should have been. And considering that the Altima coupe has a better fuel rating than the SX4 gives one very little reason to consider the smaller SX4.
 
As I pointed out earlier when Scion first introduced the xA and xB the problem was HP more than anything else, well and how ugly the xB was but that is another story. Anyway Scion solved the problem. The tC was always a bit bigger than the xA and out sold it from almost day one. Now Scion has no sub compact with 108 HP. They dropped the cars I felt the buying public would reject for one of the two reasons I have listed before. I will freely admit I don't understand the xB and why it still sells. I guess I never will. The new one looks French enough to have a cloth top.

#6817 of 9838 Really?! by andre1969

Jan 06, 2008 (8:18 am)

The Altima coupe is considered a subcompact?! Now I know it wouldn't be classed as a midsize like the sedan, because the swoopy roof probably cuts down on headroom and I'm sure the back seat has less legroom. Sometimes though, on a coupe, the decrease in legroom is accompanied by an increase in trunk space, as they just move the back seat forward to allow for a more abbreviated, low-slung roofline. So in a case like that, the increased trunk volume might partially cancel out the reduced back seat room. The rear of the Altima coupe is styled a bit differently from the sedan though, which probably also cuts down on trunk volume.
 
In recent years, the restylings that most midsized cars have gone through, with more rounded off rumps, has cut into trunk volume. The Camry dropped from 17 cubic feet to 15 with its 2007 redesign. I had initially heard that the Altima had 18 cubic feet, but the EPA rates it at 15, which is down from the 16 that the '06 model had. The 2008 Accord, which actually qualifies as a full-sized car if you don't get the sunroof, has a 14 cubic foot trunk, which, I believe, is what the '03-07 had. The Sebring/Avenger, which look like they bulked up quite a bit with the '07 redesign, saw their trunks shrink from 16 to 13 cubic feet.
 
With these trends, subcompacts might become more desireable alternatives simply by way of larger cars becoming less versatile!

#6818 of 9838 I saw a Smart yesterday by lilengineerboy

Jan 06, 2008 (8:53 am)

Running around Ann Arbor, I saw a Smart ForTwo CDi with Ontario plates. I think that is the first time I saw one on the road. We were in the city and it was having no trouble getting from light to light (it really just needs a good 0-30 time). I don't know how big the occupants were (but they had big hair, I think) but seemed comfortable enough. I think it would be a long ride down from Canada but once in Ann Arbor, I think that would be an application where it would work well. We also have a relatively high PPC (Prius per capita) so people here are open to new ideas and environmental friendliness, but nothing like the west coast.

#6819 of 9838 I can't wait by boaz47

Jan 08, 2008 (10:13 am)

to see how the Smart holds up to the LA freeway system. Better yet out on the 10 heading to Vegas on a Friday afternoon or Saturday morning. I am sure it makes a fine city car but when everything out on the road is a different story. To be truthful I take that back I am not sure it makes a fine city car because they haven't made a profit on them even in Europe when being a city car should have been a advantage.

#6820 of 9838 Re: I can't wait [boaz47] by alltorque

Jan 08, 2008 (10:54 am)

Replying to: boaz47 (Jan 08, 2008 10:13 am)
The little Smart isn't selling very well in U.K. overall. We have 4 locally, (that I'm aware of - there are doubtless more), and they are all promo vehicles for small businesses. You know the sort of thing..........colour scheme of Pink & Charcoal and graphics advertising "Wild Bill's Flower Shop" or somesuch.
 
As daily tansport they are heavily outnumbered by Nissan Micra, Honda Jazz (Fit), Citroen C1 and C2, Toyota Yaris, Skoda Fabia, MINI and all the many many others.
 
Hard to see how it will stay in production as it's mpg figures aren't exactly brilliant and the CO2 emmissions are poor relative to size. It's CO2 figures are 112 - 116 g/km. Compare this to a Toyota Yaris 1.4 diesel, (90 bhp), at 119 g/km and it starts to look not good. Then think about the VW Polo 1.4 TDi Bluemotion (80bhp) at 99 g/km. Not the most able kid on the block is it ?
 
Just to get some perspective, here are CO2 figures for a few other cars; all in g/km :
 
Bentley Conti GT = 410, Audi A6 3.0 TDi = 211, Chrysler 300C 3.5 V6 = 262 (3.6 V6 CRD = 215), BMW 335D Auto = 200, Ferrari F430 = 420, Ford Focus 2.0 Zetec = 170 (2.0 TDCi = 148).
 
Enough, already.

#6821 of 9838 Re: I can't wait [alltorque] by ateixeira

Jan 08, 2008 (11:07 am)

Replying to: alltorque (Jan 08, 2008 10:54 am)
I think they're hoping that boutique quality, rareness, uniqueness, whatever you want to call it, actually helps them sell better.

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