- #2607 of 2770
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Re: interesting discussion going on here... [lilengineerboy]
by speculator
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May 23, 2009 (8:22 am)
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 21, 2009 3:05 am)
Give me a Lincoln flagship something that is along the line of a Jaguar XJ 8. A vehicle that offers a beautiful interior and has the balance of performance between a BMW and a Mercedes. Compare the interior of the MKS with that of a Jaguar. The Jag is clearly the more desirable Otherwise I want something that is above what Lincoln offers now. Get back to rwd. That is where Lincoln belongs. I am not angry at Ford. I just don't believe that a Taurus SHO that is based at 38,000 without options is going to be a great seller. Especially at this time. I am sure that there are some enthusiast that would buy one even though the economy is tanked. .But after them who else. Perhaps if the car had a base at around 32 thou instead of 38 thou. But after 6 months you may see 5 or 6K discounts on this car if it does not sell. The MKS is being discounted more than what was envisioned when the car was introduced about a year ago. J.D. Powers lowered its forecast for total vehicle sales in the U.S for the 09 year to 9.3 million units. The Forecast of sales for the year started at about 12 million units. In February it went down t about 10.5 million units. Now 9.3 million. Who knows what will it 3 months from now? That is why I question the logic of introducing a 38 thousand dollar car for the Ford division. It has nothing to do with the quality of the car. I think that the interior could be a little better designed especially the design of the instrument cluster. But to each his own. To get back to sales. The base Flex has a low sales figure and a loaded one goes for over 40K and it has even a lower sales figures. Part of the reason is the economy and the price. Both work hand in hand.
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- #2608 of 2770
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Re: interesting discussion going on here... [speculator]
by akirby
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May 23, 2009 (2:24 pm)
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Replying to: speculator (May 23, 2009 8:22 am)
The only have to make as many SHOs as people are willing to buy - it's just a trim level. If they don't sell a lot they won't make a lot of them. But it certainly helps Ford's image right now to offer it and take advantage of whatever market exists.
As for Lincoln - how many times do we have to point out that Lincoln IS going back to RWD and it's obviously moving upmarket (witness how Mulally is moving Ford more upmarket with the Taurus). But they don't have a current, suitable RWD platform readily available and right now they simply can't afford to build a brand new one.
Why don't you go loan Lincoln a few billion dollars and they'll build just the car you want? Or just be patient and wait for them to get the Ford brand back on it's feet and then they can go after Lincoln. That's been the strategy the last 2 years. Were you asleep at all the dealer meetings?
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- #2609 of 2770
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Re: interesting discussion going on here... [speculator]
by lilengineerboy
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May 23, 2009 (5:57 pm)
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Replying to: speculator (May 23, 2009 8:22 am)
Give me a Lincoln flagship something that is along the line of a Jaguar XJ 8. A vehicle that offers a beautiful interior and has the balance of performance between a BMW and a Mercedes. Compare the interior of the MKS with that of a Jaguar. The Jag is clearly the more desirable Otherwise I want something that is above what Lincoln offers now. Get back to rwd. That is where Lincoln belongs.
I think the issue is Ford lacks a modern RWD platform. GM had European and Australian platforms to leverage for the CTS, G8, and GTO. Does Ford have a RWD other than the Mustang (which is live axle even)?
I thought the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, and T-Bird were all on the same platform. Did that get scrapped when Tata bought Jag?
I just don't believe that a Taurus SHO that is based at 38,000 without options is going to be a great seller.
Are you worried about only the SHO or the whole Taurus line in general? Does it base with the 3.5 from the Edge and then get an EcoBoost after that? I thought Mulally said it wasn't going to cost more than the current Taurus.
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- #2610 of 2770
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Re: interesting discussion going on here... [lilengineerboy]
by akirby
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May 24, 2009 (6:32 am)
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Replying to: lilengineerboy (May 23, 2009 5:57 pm)
I think the issue is Ford lacks a modern RWD platform. GM had European and Australian platforms to leverage for the CTS, G8, and GTO. Does Ford have a RWD other than the Mustang (which is live axle even)?
That's exactly the problem. The Mustang platform isn't suitable for several reasons. They have RWD V8 sedans in Australia but they don't want to just import those (GM tried that unsuccessfully). What Mulally has in mind is a new global platform that can be used for both the NA and Aussie market. It was already underway but was stopped when the economy tanked and fuel prices rose. They had to divert funding to getting the Fiesta and other smaller Euro cars here sooner. Once that's done they'll go back to global RWD.
I thought the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, and T-Bird were all on the same platform. Did that get scrapped when Tata bought Jag?
They were. The LS and T-bird were cancelled years ago. That platform was too expensive and could not use the cheaper corporate V8. When they decided not to sell it in Europe the business case was dead. Jag upgraded the DEW98 platform which is used now in the XF. Ford wants a new global RWD platform (NA and Australia) and dew98 doesn't fit the bill even if they still owned Jaguar.
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- #2612 of 2770
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Re: Ok.... [emrnibbles1]
by russ68
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May 24, 2009 (3:22 pm)
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Replying to: emrnibbles1 (May 22, 2009 1:18 pm)
Hi! I'm a potential buyer of a MKS or Navigator with hybrid Technology. I'm 40yr in age and you know what? I really don't care where the foam comes from or if it is real or not. I am very interested in a quite cabin #1, Good sturdy design and finishes that will last. Evan if I decide to keep the care 20 years (garaged of course) #2. I really think Lincoln MKZ 40 mpg and Mercury Milan 42 mpg are doing a great job. I wish they would just introduce the hybrid technology on there SUV's along with the ecoboost on models that appeal to those of us that like space and it's pleasures. I won't even look at a vehicle if I ride in the back of it and can't hear someone in the front due to road noise. In this day and age that is not realistic in a 40k + vehicle. I have a friend which was given a MKZ by her daughter and son-in-law. I did ride in the back of it and was very disappointed at the amount of road noise in the back seat. To me if you are going to spend as much as what a house cost on a vehicles the creators need to pay particular attention to detail and road noise isn't cutting it.
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- #2613 of 2770
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alman and others
by marsha7
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May 24, 2009 (6:24 pm)
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alman: "about the depreciation discussion which someone said he could buy a year old Ecoboost MKS for $20k, I highly doubt it."...I was one of those who made this comment, and, I think nvbanker (forgive me if I am wrong) agreed with me in the next few posts...if not nvbanker, then someone else...
While I do not have exact numbers, I would still guess that Big 3 cars will depreciate like rocks...if someone buys an MKS ecoboost for $40K, rest assured that if they trade it in next year, they will be lucky to get over $20K trade-in...in 2 years, the used miodel will sell for $20K...be as optimistic as you want, American cars do not, have not, and will not hold value, with very few exceptions...
alirby says that Ford no longer has the stigma of a few years ago...no doubt they are getting better, but to say that their rep of the last few years has been completely removed is, IMO, not true at all...I also agree with speculator that a Ford at $38K may be difficult to sell...just like VW could not sell a Phaeton, Ford may have trouble with a passenger car, same name as an inexpensive sedan of 1985-2005, selling for over $40K after sales tax, ext warranty, and other goodies added on by the dealer...
Maybe the rep of Ford has changed as far as rotten vehicles, but to think that Ford can approach $40K with an ordinary passenger car, well, I think Ford will be quite surprised when folks say they love the car, but will only spend $10K less than the asking price of the Taurus...
Some car brands simply have reputations that have lasted too many years to change...Ford (and Chevrolet) are mainline US brands not known for expensive cars...when they ask $40K for an ordinary passenger vehicle, I think they are heading into dangerous territory...the reviews may be nice, but folks are not going to drop $40K on a Chevy or Ford...at least not in great numbers that they hope...those cars are, simply, too expensive, esp when they WILL drop like rocks after one year out...a 2010 Taurus or MKS at $35-40K new, will be well under $25K, almost new (used) in 2011...
I could be wrong, but I won't be off by much, maybe a thousand or two...Ford and Chevy do not have any cachet, and even the names Caddy and Lincoln are struggling, IMO...
At $35-40K, Ford is making Honda look better by the day...
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- #2614 of 2770
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Re: 2010 MKS Ecoboost pricing [emrnibbles1]
by gregg_vw
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May 25, 2009 (3:22 pm)
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Replying to: emrnibbles1 (May 22, 2009 11:42 am)
But in a 43k loaded Taurus sho and in a 50 k Lincoln. I think I would want better material for these prices than synthetic suede or wood scraps. A 365 hp car that weighs approx 3700-4000 lbs is not environmentally friendly. I would think that the reason for really using synthetic material for suede seats and wood cast offs for panel trim is cost and not because Ford really is environmentally concerned. If it is ,it's only concerned to a point;and that point is is that it is more cost saving using recycled materials over original materials. The car speaks for itself. I don't care about the Polar Bears either. I like large cars with engines that develop a ton of ponies.
Excuse me, but aren't you being at least slightly ridiculous here? No one puts real suede in a modern car. It doesn't wear well and doesn't stand up. The Audi A8 and other luxury cars have used ultrasuede materials or Alcantara for years.You may not care about polar bears and that is your choice. But Ford is going where there is a market, and green, fake or real, is in. Besides, making recycled materials look and feel quality is neither easy nor cheap to do.
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- #2615 of 2770
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Re: alman and others [marsha7]
by alman08
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May 25, 2009 (4:28 pm)
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Replying to: marsha7 (May 24, 2009 6:24 pm)
well, IF one can buy a brand new loaded MKS with Ecoboost for under $40k, that will be good for me too. And lately, I have my eyes on the MKX also, so if MKS with Ecoboost can go for under 40k, hehehehe... MKX for under $30k? 
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- #2616 of 2770
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Re: interesting discussion going on here... [emrnibbles1]
by speculator
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May 25, 2009 (7:41 pm)
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Replying to: emrnibbles1 (May 22, 2009 12:28 pm)
The Taurus Limited with awd is based at around 33 thousand. The car could lose about 2 to 3k off list. The Limited has just about every option that is available on the Taurus SE and SEL as standard though. So what one is basically buying is a fully loaded Taurus SE. Just have a base model and then let the customer pick and choose from an option list of individual items the way he wants his car to be equipped. Now everthing has to come in a package. Just another way to drive up the price of a vehicle above and beyond what a customer may actually need in a vehicle. The 2010 MKS has just about everything that was offered as an option in 09 as standard now. I read on these post that people are asking why the price of the car has risen about 5000 thousand dollars. That's the reason. I agree with what you have written about the Chrysler rear wheel drive models. I also share your view that the Mercedes chassis is a superior chassis as compared to a Volvo chassis. Ford may have the perfect solution to solving its lack of an rwd chassis. Purchase the rwd Chrysler/ Mercedes rwd platform from Chrysler. It's a pretty good platform that Ford may be able to purchased for pennies on the dollar. It certainly could be used to fill in a gap for awhile.
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