Last post on Nov 25, 2013 at 2:27 PM
You are in the Lincoln MKS
What is this discussion about?
Lincoln MKS, Sedan
#2278 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [savetheland]
Jan 18, 2009 (5:07 pm)
It is NOT the Focus plain and simple. First, remember that the European Focus is already a superior car to most. The Concept C takes the Focus, widens it considerably, adds tons of Lincoln cues (suicide doors, the first real bench seats in years, stellar interior finish, full-size room, Lincoln styling), and does it with a footprint that may be too wide for Europe, but is very compact for the US. This is innovation, this is responding to the times, this is a car that could rival Mini (the only success out there right now in these dark times), and you call it simply another Focus?
The MKS is another 2010 Taurus in different clothes. Same exact size, same basic engines, same options. The C is not just a Focus...it is a small Lincoln like we have never seen. It is not a Versailles (thinly disguised Granada); it is akin to an Audi TT which is based on a VW Golf. It is innovative. I don't give it a snowball's chance of coming to market, but if it did, I'd buy it in a NY minute. I am so sick of excessively long overhangs to give the impression of a large car. I want the interior room on the smallest footprint I can have while still having some style. I'd buy a Mini if the interior weren't so tight.
#2279 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 18, 2009 (8:57 pm)
Lincoln is already a niche brand. It chooses not to compete with any other premium brand and that includes Cadillac. Ford admits that Lincoln is not a competitor against premium imports. That Lincoln is aimed at the domestic market and those that tend to purchase domestics. If Ford follows its present plans it will again be producing outdated cars if all it is going to do is to use its present platforms for the next 5 years. The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform that has been discontinued. And will continued to be based on that platform. Ford has no plans to use the new platform. In fact Ford is going to use its present platforms with mild updates for at least 5 years. Meanwhile in all probability the Asian brands will return to profitability before the domestic makes allowing for the introduction of new platforms and tech thus leaving the domestics back where they started which is producing outdated cars with decreasing reliability which would equal less demand for domestic products.And continued financial problems for the domestics. S&P took this into account when it determined that in the future all three of the domestics would probably have to go into ch 11 regardless of bailouts. Ford and the rest is going to have to invest in using new tech, materials , metal alloys and methods to produce its vehicles. Especially if the vehicles that they produce are going to produce better fuel mileage without being the size of the Chevy Aveo. None can wait for the next five years to determine what the foreign competition has done and then play catch -up . They are going to have to plan better products for the near term. But they are all short of funds and can't afford to do that. If they could use the bailout money for that instead of having to use it to fulfill old agreements then it may be possible. Baring that, they all may be better off by going into chapter 11 and getting out of their obligations. Then use that money that is freed to really modernize their vehicle line-ups. As for Lincoln , Lincoln has to produce a world class rwd vehicle that employs many of the methods that I wrote about above in order to survive. Lincoln has to be more that a niche vehicle that is only available to the domestic market. It needs to establish an export market for it to be more than a domestic niche brand that is basically a Ford with a different body. It probably can't survive by just depending on the domestic market for sales. It needs to create vehicles that can compete with the foreign premium brands. In an export market the price of producing such a car could be better spread out over more sales in more markets. And if congress does its job and closes some of these loopholes, I doubt that the price of a barrel of oil will top 75 dollars.
#2280 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [speculator]
Jan 19, 2009 (6:12 am)
The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform that has been discontinued. And will continued to be based on that platform. Ford has no plans to use the new platform. In fact Ford is going to use its present platforms with mild updates for at least 5 years.
Ford chose to continue using the CD3 platforms for now because they are consolidating the domestic (fusion) and european (mondeo) CD vehicles onto a common platform - why change now only to change again in a few years? Besides, there is nothing wrong with the current platform - if anything the Mazda6 is just now catching up with where the Fusion has been for 3 years already.
And in case you haven't been paying attention, the 2010 Fusion is blowing away the Camry and Accord in fuel economy - it's not even close. And that goes for both the hybrid and non-hybrid models. The 2010 Taurus is gorgeous and they're bringing over both the European focus and the Fiesta. They're moving the Explorer to a unibody platform for better ride and fuel economy.
Ford is the focus right now (pun intended) and that's where all the money and resources are going. Mercury was simply put on hold and Lincoln is getting minimal funding. Ford is the priority - that's where the money is.
Not to mention that Ford has not cancelled any future product development other than GRWD - they are still investing in new products and they're doing it without a government loan. They are also GAINING market share right now (including Lincoln) and will be in good shape by the end of this year.
It take money and resources to make the kinds of changes you're asking for, and Ford has neither right now beyond what it's already working on. Anyone who understands running a business and budgets understands that you have to pick and choose and right now they're choosing to work on things that will keep the Ford brand profitable from here on out - and that has to take precedence.
#2281 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [speculator]
Jan 19, 2009 (6:40 am)
The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform that has been discontinued. And will continued to be based on that platform. Ford has no plans to use the new platform. I don't disagree with many of your sentiments, but I do believe in giving credit where credit is due. The Fusion platform was an update/re-engineering of the Mazda6 platform. The car's dynamics are frequently praised, especially in comparison to competition like the Camry.
The new 2009 Mazda6 adopted the Fusion platform, because it is superior to the old 2003-08 Mazda6. If the Fusion package deserves any criticism, it is that the overall 2006 styling will be carried on for too many years...not much Ford can do about that now. Fortunately, it is still current, though in looks (a subjective thing of course) hardly competitive with the 2009 Mazda6. Being a Ford, having the best mpg, and now having stability control, SYNC, etc., it will do well. The Mazdas will suffer some, because both hp and mpg are down from the comparable Fords.
#2282 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 19, 2009 (10:26 am)
Ford gained market share because the others lost market share. I believe that Fords sale were down 32 perscent in Dec as compared to Dec of 07. The new F150 is the only veihcle that has seen an increase in sales. What is the list price on a Mondeo in the U.K? This is an expensive platform. Much more than that used on a Mazda 6. The platform for the Mondeo was engineered for European driving patterns. The same can be said for the European Focus and Fiesta platforms Also the European versions have a more upscal interiors and can be purchased with a turbo diesel and 2 or 3 other gas engine options. The platforms of these vehicles that are going to be used in the U.S . are going to be watered down versions of their European cousins to hold down cost along with watered down interiors to do the same. First though, these vehicles will have to get through all the government red tape to get approval to be marketed here. By the time it takes to get the new tooling and gov approval to manufacture these vehicles here these platforms and other tech will have all but have been made obsolete by their asian competition. Also, Ford, has asked the European Union for bailout money to run its Euro operations.
#2283 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [speculator]
Jan 19, 2009 (10:49 am)
Ford gained market share because the others lost market share.
Umm....yeah, that's how market share works. In order for someone to gain market share, someone else has to lose it. To look at it another way - Ford lost LESS sales than the others did. What that means is that if overall auto sales were at the same level as in the past, Ford would be selling more vehicles. Gaining market share is the only benchmark you can use to quantify market success when the entire market is down.
What is the list price on a Mondeo in the U.K? This is an expensive platform......The platforms of these vehicles that are going to be used in the U.S . are going to be watered down versions of their European cousins to hold down cost along with watered down interiors to do the same......By the time it takes to get the new tooling and gov approval to manufacture these vehicles here these platforms and other tech will have all but have been made obsolete by their asian competition.
There is no comparison between UK prices and USA prices. Cars cost more in the UK - period. It's a totally different market.
If you've seen the U.S. versions of the Fiesta you'd see that it's not a "watered down" version of the Euro Fiesta at all. All Ford is saying is that it will use a common platform (starting point) for similar U.S. and Euro models. How much is different will depend on local market requirements - but commonality is the goal.
#2284 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 19, 2009 (11:22 am)
Thats right Ford lost less sales than other makes. It didn't increase it sales over the same period comparing Dec 07 to Dec 08.Sales were down about 32 %.The only increase in sales came from the F150. Not from the car segment. Most of these sales were from those that needed a new truck. for heavy use. The sale of these vehicles will probably decline as the market I wrote about above for these vehicles become satiated. If you ever get to the U.K. drive a Mondeo and then drive a Fusion or MKZ. When compared to the Fusion or MKZ the quaility of workmanship, perfomance and interiors of the Euro vehicles are clearly superior. The Americans I guess don't deserve this type of vehicle according to Ford.
#2285 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [speculator]
Jan 19, 2009 (11:43 am)
What point are you trying to make about sales? Honda and Toyota lost MORE sales in December than Ford did. That means Ford did BETTER than them, and better than most other mfrs. What part of "increased market share" do you not understand?
The Americans I guess don't deserve this type of vehicle according to Ford.
Who said that? Ford's plan is to do just that - bring over the European models with minimal changes. The U.S. version of the Fiesta is almost identical to the Euro version except for minor changes. Again, I don't know what you're complaining about here.
#2286 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 19, 2009 (3:20 pm)
Guess I have to move over to Allen's camp here,speculator. First of all, the Mondeo costs more in the UK and continent because of a higher tax structure on personal vehicles than what we have (VAT tax, etc,). In addition, all the people who do direct conversion of one currency to another are forgetting that this only holds if you are buying the currency, traveling, or importing goods. For those living in the EU, they don't figure costs in dollars as we do. If a car costs 21K pounds or 21K euros, to the residents of those countries (who are paid in those currencies), it is roughly akin to a $21K car in the US to a US citizen.
Of course it would cost more for Ford to import the Mondeo and sell it here. That's why they don't. But if they built it here (or in Mexico or Canada), that exchange rate penalty goes away. That is why, if Ford survives until 2010 and beyond, some of their best products will be able to be sold at competitive prices.
I share your disappointment that those in control at Ford made such incredibly bad decisions, backed up by exttraordinarily unreasonable salaries. However, this is no different than the out-of-whack situation that occurred in most industries who were feeding off the artificial and greedy go-go projections of the early 2000's. But Ford is poised to survive better than GM and Chrysler. It is at the moment doing better than Toyota and Honda in this country.
Will it survive long-term? I wouldn't bet on it. The damage Bill Ford did is still playing out. People other than him share the blame. To have been on the top in the late 90s and early 2000's, and continue to "redesign" by using previous designs and refine them was pennywise and pound foolish.
GM is in a lot of trouble and may need more life support. But at least they changed the Suburban and Silverado and Malibu and Caddy CTS and SRX every redesign legitimately. They didn't just do the front and rear clip and interior and call it all new. They are dying for a lot of bad decisions regarding product. The Pontiac line? OMG!, The wilting Buick line? Hummer? Saab? The Malibu and Impala and CTS and G8 and Solstice and Enclave and Escalade were overshadowed by too many divisions and too much duplication.
Ford really really screwed up. But now they have a chance to make it. Conditions are such that they will have to succeed in almost impossible conditions. But of the "pathetic 3" I'd bet on them. And please look at Audi, which committed to FWD/AWD. Even in 2008, which was awful for just about everybody (and remarkably so for Toyota and Honda), they not only increased market share, but increased year-to-year sales. If FoMoCo can survive by giving quality and value as Audi did lacking any RWD, like Audi which now has a RWD sports car and is planning more, Ford may be able to make Lincoln a real player again. Ford must survive first....at any cost. Then Lincoln may once again be more than a Studebaker with lipstick (final Packards).
#2287 of 2980 Re: Ecoboost MKS [gregg_vw]
Jan 19, 2009 (6:01 pm)
"this is a car that could rival Mini (the only success out there right now in these dark times), and you call it simply another Focus?"
So now Lincoln is competing with Mini. Nice. And Mini is RWD BTW (just kidding, okay).
And I still did not get answer: what is Mercury for?
Ford and Opel always considered in Europe as a cheapo brands. Ford had superior handling starting with the first Mondeo (a.k.a. Contour) - but interiors were always on cheap side and it hurt Ford's reputation in Europe tremendously.I don't know may be they improved with the last Mondeo. In fact VW at least last 20 years considered as a more premium brand than eigther Ford or Opel. And there is nothing extraordinary about Mondeo price - it is more about tax structure than real cost. In Germany all cars has firmer suspension and better (firmer) seats just because roads are extremely smooth and well-maintained and speeds are considerably higher than in USA.
For Audi it took long-long time of consistent development of excelent AWD cards to get even close to MB and BMW. And even now many people do not consider Audi as an equal to MB and BMW. Cadillac and Lincoln in the past at least 60-70s were very prestigious brands, more prestigious than Audi and likes. But GM and Ford managed to squander prestige and for what? Cheapening brands did not bring them more money - just opposite.
And Ford changes its mind every month - Lincoln will be in PAG, not lets put it back with Ford, wait three years and you will see RWD luxury Lincoln, No there will be no RWD luxury Lincoln - only Ford clones, wait no - there will be no big Lincolns - Lincoln will now compete with Mini. No-no-no - Lincoln will compete with Buick. No we changed our mind again - Lincoln will compete with Huindai. No - with Kia (and we actually had Lincoln-Mercury-Kia dealership in Sunnivale - believe it or not).