Last post on May 07, 2013 at 2:30 PM
You are in the Lincoln MKS
What is this discussion about?
Lincoln MKS, Sedan
#2271 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [savetheland]
Jan 16, 2009 (10:33 am)
What real Lincoln? LS is dead. TC is basically dead (and should have been euthanized years ago in its present form...it is like Lincoln's own Checker taxi). The MKX is an Edge with makeup. The MKZ would make a better Mercury than Lincoln. The MKT appears to be a Lincoln no one asked for. Maybe it will eventually replace the slow selling Navigator.
The MKS can hold its own with FWD/AWD near-luxury sedans...but now it is not even truly an upgraded Ford (as the 2010 Taurus is so good), but rather a Ford with new Lincoln styling. The C concept at the Detroit show demonstrates some forward thinking, but I have no idea if something so innovative would ever get approval. Still can't believe how they took the MKT concept which (love it or hate it) looked like nothing else on the road and turned it into an innocuous station wagon, with the new Lincoln grill on the front. Sort of like how they messed up the MKX from taking it from concept to Edge-with-a-Lincoln-esque-grill.
BTW, have you looked at the mileage of some of the 09 V8s? The 5.7 372 hp Dodge Challenger (a rather large and heavy car) already gets 16/25 mpg. Not too shabby, and again begs the question, what clear advantage really is there with a complicated twin turbo V6 over a normally aspirated, well-geared V8? Just asking...
#2272 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [gregg_vw]
Jan 16, 2009 (6:06 pm)
And I forgot to mention important detail - there will be no RWD Lincolns. Both GM and Ford abandoned using australian RWD in USA. Caddy will still have one and may be Pontiac. If they leave Pontiac as a FWD - it is better to kill the brand. And rename Lincoln to Mercuries - finally.
Whats the point with MKT - were not Mercuries supposed to be small premium cars? And MKT is nothing other than Ford Focus. Well for Audi it works - but Audi is an engineering company and it is the separate company in VAG.
Thats my question to American CEOs - why you need several brands if cannot differentiate them? Toyota does, Nissan does, even VW does.
#2273 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [savetheland]
Jan 17, 2009 (9:20 am)
MKT is a Focus? What planet are you living on? MKT is based on the Flex which is a 7 passenger vehicle with 3 rows of seating.
The problem with american mfrs and brands is history - these brands were born decades ago when the automobile industry was totally different, and they have not adapted over the years. The imports were able to come in about 20 years ago and create new brands from scratch without the historical baggage or huge legacy dealer networks to support.
Ford finally gets it but it will take years to straighten it out. They are quietly consolidating and buying out dealers.
And just to clarify the RWD issue - Ford has put the GRWD program on hold and while we're all disappointed it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Ford's limited resources are better spent on smaller cars and improved fuel economy. What could be worse than for Ford to spend billions on new large RWD vehicles only to see gas prices go back up and sales dwindle again.
It's not just that it's RWD - it's the cost of a new platform when they already have capable, if not exciting, FWD/AWD platforms.
When Ford is in the black again and has the basics covered then they can afford to look at a new Lincoln platform. Sucks, but that's business.
#2274 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 17, 2009 (1:15 pm)
There is always a customer for a premium rwd vehicle. These can afford the higher price of fuel. There are ways of producing a premium rwd platform that will be more fuel efficient .Two of the methods is to decrease weight by using new metal alloys and carbon graphite fibers. For engine tech direct injection with cylinder deactivation. The problem with Lincoln is is that this type of customer believes that Lincolns are basically Fords with a different body. In order to make this brand into a premium mark again Lincoln needs a rwd premium vehicle. But that also means that Lincoln has to convince this market segment that it is again a premium brand.
#2275 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [speculator]
Jan 17, 2009 (7:33 pm)
Of course there is a market, but it's a relatively small market (and shrinking). If Ford was making money then maybe they could afford to go after such a niche market. But they can't so they have to focus on their core vehicles.
It's not just fuel economy - it's the cost of the investment versus the payoff. Ford simply has other areas that need the investment more at the moment. In 2 years hopefully that will be a different story.
Jan 17, 2009 (11:26 pm)
Wife's sister just leased an MKS after trying the Infiniti M35, ES350, GS3XX?, CTS, S80 and such. She loves it. She let me drive it. I assume it has the luxury package or something as it had the backup camera, massive sunroof, THX, Nav and some other stuff life bluetooth. I have no idea what her lease payments are, sorry. She just replaced a leased BMW 5 series and while she has only had the Lincoln and week she seems to greatly prefer it tot he BMW.
I took it out for a test drive, but not on the highway.
1) Very quiet.
2) Smooth ride (Even with 20" wheels, thought it would be tighter with those wheels). Not like a 80's Lincoln.
3) Steering was responsive for me. Where ever I turned the wheel it went.
4) Pretty huge interior which now that I am 40 I like.
5) Good seats. Not the best I have sat in but pretty darn good. Firm. I didn't mess with her lumbar setting though. Nice quality leather.
6) Over all I think the interior looks very sharp. Not award winning or innovative but presidential. There were some cheaper plastics like i have read in some reviews but the leather was top notch which I guess I value more.
7) The car is bigger than I thought now having seen it in my driveway but unlike the outgoing Towncar I think I would be ok parking it. I believe it has front and rear sensors for parking assist but I did not test that feature.
8) Didn't car for the massive grill. People who need a grill like that must be making up for some short-coming (yuk yuk yuk). In general don't like the exterior styling and still think the out going TownCar is one of the best looking cars on the road.
9) I thought the stereo rocked it out but only mention it b.c the reviews said it was lacking and I do not agree. Personally, this is something I almost couldn't car less about.
10) Pretty good turning radius for a large car. Again, I was surprised.
11) The engine was OK. I left it in auto and did not manually shift. It could go if pressed but it wasn't a rocket off the line. It was responsive off the line. It is more than adequate for me and my sister-in-law said it was a great highway cruiser. As a side note she and her husband said this was the first time they drove from NY to DC and their backs didn't hurt (as they did in the BMW).
12) Nicer over-all than the CPO 2005(6) LS430 I test drove in August that had 30000 miles on it. In fact, the MKS reminded me of the LS430 but felt just a little more solid. I would have to drive both back to back to say for sure, both were pretty fantastic.
I was sad to see the TownCar whither on the vine as it has since Ford was just riding it out to the 'livery only' market but now I think differently. This is a fine replacement and if I could afford one I would buy it. If the numbers I see on these boards saying it could be leased for $485/mo are true I would definitely consider it.
#2277 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 18, 2009 (4:14 pm)
I meant MKC or whatever little concept they introduced at Detroit autoshow. It is Ford Focus - plain and simple - like jaguar X-type was nothing more than Ford Mondeo. What is the strategy for Mercury? It looks like Ford change its strategy every quarter. Mercury was declared to be small-car premium brand to complement Lincoln - and now they propose to introduce Lincoln Focus? Whats going on?
No market for RWD luxury cars? On what planet do you live? ALL luxury cars are RWD except of Audi which is unlike Lincoln is highly engineered, high content car with advanced AWD.
Not enough resources? What did Ford when there were tons of money? Waisted on SUVs, British luxury brand that nobody wanted and wants and self-inflicted fiasco. Lack of money is not an explanation - it is lack of focus and lack of vision.
#2278 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [savetheland]
Jan 18, 2009 (6:07 pm)
It is NOT the Focus plain and simple. First, remember that the European Focus is already a superior car to most. The Concept C takes the Focus, widens it considerably, adds tons of Lincoln cues (suicide doors, the first real bench seats in years, stellar interior finish, full-size room, Lincoln styling), and does it with a footprint that may be too wide for Europe, but is very compact for the US. This is innovation, this is responding to the times, this is a car that could rival Mini (the only success out there right now in these dark times), and you call it simply another Focus?
The MKS is another 2010 Taurus in different clothes. Same exact size, same basic engines, same options. The C is not just a Focus...it is a small Lincoln like we have never seen. It is not a Versailles (thinly disguised Granada); it is akin to an Audi TT which is based on a VW Golf. It is innovative. I don't give it a snowball's chance of coming to market, but if it did, I'd buy it in a NY minute. I am so sick of excessively long overhangs to give the impression of a large car. I want the interior room on the smallest footprint I can have while still having some style. I'd buy a Mini if the interior weren't so tight.
#2279 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [akirby]
Jan 18, 2009 (9:57 pm)
Lincoln is already a niche brand. It chooses not to compete with any other premium brand and that includes Cadillac. Ford admits that Lincoln is not a competitor against premium imports. That Lincoln is aimed at the domestic market and those that tend to purchase domestics. If Ford follows its present plans it will again be producing outdated cars if all it is going to do is to use its present platforms for the next 5 years. The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform that has been discontinued. And will continued to be based on that platform. Ford has no plans to use the new platform. In fact Ford is going to use its present platforms with mild updates for at least 5 years. Meanwhile in all probability the Asian brands will return to profitability before the domestic makes allowing for the introduction of new platforms and tech thus leaving the domestics back where they started which is producing outdated cars with decreasing reliability which would equal less demand for domestic products.And continued financial problems for the domestics. S&P took this into account when it determined that in the future all three of the domestics would probably have to go into ch 11 regardless of bailouts. Ford and the rest is going to have to invest in using new tech, materials , metal alloys and methods to produce its vehicles. Especially if the vehicles that they produce are going to produce better fuel mileage without being the size of the Chevy Aveo. None can wait for the next five years to determine what the foreign competition has done and then play catch -up . They are going to have to plan better products for the near term. But they are all short of funds and can't afford to do that. If they could use the bailout money for that instead of having to use it to fulfill old agreements then it may be possible. Baring that, they all may be better off by going into chapter 11 and getting out of their obligations. Then use that money that is freed to really modernize their vehicle line-ups. As for Lincoln , Lincoln has to produce a world class rwd vehicle that employs many of the methods that I wrote about above in order to survive. Lincoln has to be more that a niche vehicle that is only available to the domestic market. It needs to establish an export market for it to be more than a domestic niche brand that is basically a Ford with a different body. It probably can't survive by just depending on the domestic market for sales. It needs to create vehicles that can compete with the foreign premium brands. In an export market the price of producing such a car could be better spread out over more sales in more markets. And if congress does its job and closes some of these loopholes, I doubt that the price of a barrel of oil will top 75 dollars.
#2280 of 2971 Re: Ecoboost MKS [speculator]
Jan 19, 2009 (7:12 am)
The Fusion is based on the Mazda 6 platform that has been discontinued. And will continued to be based on that platform. Ford has no plans to use the new platform. In fact Ford is going to use its present platforms with mild updates for at least 5 years.
Ford chose to continue using the CD3 platforms for now because they are consolidating the domestic (fusion) and european (mondeo) CD vehicles onto a common platform - why change now only to change again in a few years? Besides, there is nothing wrong with the current platform - if anything the Mazda6 is just now catching up with where the Fusion has been for 3 years already.
And in case you haven't been paying attention, the 2010 Fusion is blowing away the Camry and Accord in fuel economy - it's not even close. And that goes for both the hybrid and non-hybrid models. The 2010 Taurus is gorgeous and they're bringing over both the European focus and the Fiesta. They're moving the Explorer to a unibody platform for better ride and fuel economy.
Ford is the focus right now (pun intended) and that's where all the money and resources are going. Mercury was simply put on hold and Lincoln is getting minimal funding. Ford is the priority - that's where the money is.
Not to mention that Ford has not cancelled any future product development other than GRWD - they are still investing in new products and they're doing it without a government loan. They are also GAINING market share right now (including Lincoln) and will be in good shape by the end of this year.
It take money and resources to make the kinds of changes you're asking for, and Ford has neither right now beyond what it's already working on. Anyone who understands running a business and budgets understands that you have to pick and choose and right now they're choosing to work on things that will keep the Ford brand profitable from here on out - and that has to take precedence.