- #2236 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [sardone]
by datagen
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Dec 22, 2008 (4:52 pm)
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Replying to: sardone (Dec 19, 2008 9:23 pm)
You sum it up much better than I ever could sardone. I love my AWD version as well with the gas mileage surprisingly close to yours.
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- #2237 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [sardone]
by speculator
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Dec 22, 2008 (7:27 pm)
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Replying to: sardone (Dec 19, 2008 9:23 pm)
For the price of this vehicle it should perform as well as other vehicles in its category. Is it a vehicle that could be sold and exported to other markets. Otherwise is it a world class vehicle? Ford has relegated the Lincoln brand to be a niche vehicle for the North American continent. Before purchasing this vehicle one should test drive an Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti and Lexus and Cadillac There are vehicles that these marks have that are in the same price range and yet the performance and workmanship of these vehicle are superior to the MKS. Lincoln had a chance to do something really stupendous with this car but they decided to use an outdated modified Volvo platform for this vehicle. Even Lexus is going toward the performance market with its IS-F.As one auto analyst said on CNBC when the hearings for the auto- maker bailouts were taking place, "only GM with its CTS and Corvette and possibly the Camaro are candidates for exports to other markets and Ford has nothing to export to other markets" That is not very reassuring since we are in a global market when new markets are essential to increase the profits of large manufacturing companies. Another thing is how long Lincoln will be here since Ford has decided to discontinue the Sable. I believe that Ford is slowly going to discontinue the Mercury brand. Could Lincoln also go into history? If it should go under, it had a chance to go out with a bang as Packard did with its Caribbean before it was an expensive Studebaker. Instead the MKS is just another ordinary make with nothing to differentiate it from lesser cars especially when a Nissan Maxima out performs it in every category.
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- #2238 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [speculator]
by akirby
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Dec 22, 2008 (7:54 pm)
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Replying to: speculator (Dec 22, 2008 7:27 pm)
Where does Ford need to export? They already do quite well in Europe, South America and Australia.
They did the best they could given the platform limitations. It's not where they want to take Lincoln - Mulally already said so - but it takes a lot of cash for new platforms and they can't afford that right now.
There is NO import car that competes with the MKS in the same size and price point. For the same price you get a smaller vehicle with less features. For the same size and features you'll pay at least $10K more.
It's a well executed vehicle with only a few minor complaints - gauges and center stack come to mind.
They'll get there - but it will take a few more years.
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- #2239 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [akirby]
by speculator
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Dec 22, 2008 (9:23 pm)
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Replying to: akirby (Dec 22, 2008 7:54 pm)
GM also does well in its foreign markets. Especially in South America, China , and Asia in general. GM is trying to re-establish Cadillac as a world class mark. If they do, that would only add to the marks panache in its domestic market. Ford doesn't have a prestige mark in any of its markets. Lincoln isn't even considered by many to be a prestige make in the U.S. because it doesn't have any vehicles that are able to be marketed worldwide. Lincoln could be that brand again. If Ford were to make Lincoln into into a world class brand that has broad appeal to those who aren't too concerned about the difference of 5 to 10 thousand dollars between the price of vehicles ,Ford would re-establish Lincoln as a true prestige brand with broad appeal both in its domestic market as well as in other markets. It may actually increase sales. The Lincoln brand is still known in foreign markets,especially Europe. Right now those that purchase higher end vehicles want to be re- assured that the vehicle that they are buying has the same panache as the coworker who parks his Mercedes next to him. Sometimes being cheaper is considered to be cheap. There are people who are still purchasing high end vehicles. At my new BMW dealership people are purchasing their cars in full with cash or are putting a third down. The people who are purchasing these vehicle tell me that they would be willing to go domestic if the domestics were in the same class as the imports. All are younger people with the median age of about 50. They consider Lincoln to be an old persons car. Right now, Lincoln has nothing to offer the younger market segment. Lincoln will probably never have a vehicle in that segment. Mulally said, when being interviewed on CNBC, that his only concern is seeing that the blue oval brand survives. It would be nice if the Ford family were willing to put some skin in the game to save the company. But why should they. S&P informed investors that even with the bailout there is at least a 90 % probability that all three makers would eventually go into chapter 11 at some time in the future. I hope Lincoln could be sold to a speciality maker that has the engineering expertise to produce an American Mercedes or BMW
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- #2240 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [speculator]
by akirby
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Dec 23, 2008 (7:39 am)
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Replying to: speculator (Dec 22, 2008 9:23 pm)
But Ford HAD European prestige brands already in Aston Martin and Jaguar - there was no reason to put Lincoln in the mix. Now that's all changed so the door is open, but it takes time.
And if Ford doesn't survive, Lincoln doesn't survive. That's why Mulally has focused on mainstream Ford vehicles first. Ford needs to be profitable in the U.S. before it can afford to develop an all new world class RWD platform for Lincoln.
Ford has the management team in place to make that happen and as long as the economy doesn't get worse Ford will be fine.
Why not look at the positives? The MKS has the highest quality interior, the most technological features including AWD and the most power (340 hp in a few months) of any Lincoln in the last 30 years. Seems like a huge step in the right direction to me.
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- #2241 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [akirby]
by speculator
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Dec 23, 2008 (9:02 am)
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Replying to: akirby (Dec 23, 2008 7:39 am)
The car is not a bad car. But it tries to be everything to everybody. It wants to be a TC replacement and also an LS replacement. Give it a firmer ride than a TC but not much firmer as to discourage the TC buyers from buying and hope that the ride and handling is just right as to encourage LS owners to purchase it. If that isn't good enough to get LS owners to buy, give it awd as an option with a 340 hp engine option . But it still won't handle as an LS. I don't think Lincoln is going to offer a sport package for the 340hp option. I think that the car was designed by committee. There were those who wanted a traditional TC type vehicle and those who wanted an LS replacement. This vehicle is the compromise. Ford needs a car person to run its r&d dept. Someone who could take charge and push projects through red tape. It doesn't need committees.
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- #2242 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [speculator]
by akirby
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Dec 23, 2008 (9:38 am)
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Replying to: speculator (Dec 23, 2008 9:02 am)
I think you're missing the point. There is only so much you can do with a transverse engine FWD platform, even with AWD. It's never going to handle like a LS no matter who engineers it. The ride is already much firmer than a TC which has turned off some current TC owners. It's as sporty as possible.
It's quite simple - to build the car you want requires a new, sophisticated, expensive RWD platform that simply doesn't exist right now. Lincoln has plans to build it but first they have to get through this economic crisis. What more can they possibly do RIGHT NOW?
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- #2243 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [akirby]
by speculator
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Dec 23, 2008 (7:35 pm)
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Replying to: akirby (Dec 23, 2008 9:38 am)
Just three words: Audi, Acura, and Hyundi. Audi uses a fwd and awd platform and yet will out handle and out perform the MKS. I know about the price of these cars. But yet Acura makes the TL in standard fwd and also with a sophisticated awd system as an option. Both versions will out handle the MKS and is in the same price range. Hyundi managed to produce a sophisticated premium rwd vehicle which is also in the same price category as the MKS. Which is another vehicle that can out perform the MKS. It's pretty bad when a relatively new companies as Hyundi and Acura are ahead of the curve while Ford ,even in decent conditions, was behind. They decided to stay behind while using the profits from SUVs and trucks to produce new SUVs and trucks while forgeting about their car lines. The sad part is is that they thought they could catch up to these rivals in terms of new platform tech with the MKS.
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- #2244 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [speculator]
by datagen
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Dec 23, 2008 (7:55 pm)
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Replying to: speculator (Dec 22, 2008 7:27 pm)
I think there may be some confusion here. Yes I know what Ford intended but there was a balancing act going on here. I believe the MKS is in a class by itself. The size of it alone tells you clearly that even though it was meant to be a direct competitor, it is turning into a indirect one. It was designed to provide something different from the high-end main steam where performance amongst the other competitors is very close and looks not much difference as well. I am not sure is there a thing called workmanship when over 70% of the work done on vehicle today in the manufacturing world is performed by computers and robots.
Yet as long as man is the source there will always be imperfections. Like beauty this is all in the eyes of the beholder. For example some say the pickup on the MKS is lacking. Others say due to the transmission design it is fine, while others are waiting on the ecoboost looking for speed. My old man use to tell me that the latest is not necessary the greatest, and what may seemed to be out dated, may still serve its purpose just fine. With all the latest computer languages that are used today, many banks still use the old language of Cobol due to its stability and low support cost. So the incorporation of the old and new in this vehicle was a balancing act indeed.
I have never seen the perfect car no matter what the cost. Like everything else it is a percentage decision. There are some things I do not like about the MKS, but my percentage of likes was higher than my dislikes, hence I purchased the vehicle. As we nick pick from out own worlds, lets take a moment to appreciate the overall intent of the engineers and designers for their effort to create a product towards the satisfaction of all no matter how impossible it would have been from jump street.
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- #2245 of 2769
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Re: Real Facts about Linciln MKS [speculator]
by akirby
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Dec 24, 2008 (7:04 am)
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Replying to: speculator (Dec 23, 2008 7:35 pm)
Audi uses a longitudinal engine design, not transverse which yields slightly better weight distribution. And the TL is much smaller than the MKS - the RL would be a better comparison.
What does Hyundai have with the Genesis that Ford didn't? A new RWD platform.
We all agree that Ford should have developed a world class RWD platform years ago, but they didn't. In the meantime, the MKS is a very good vehicle, although not perfect.
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