Last post on May 07, 2013 at 2:30 PM
You are in the Lincoln MKS
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Lincoln MKS, Sedan
Mar 01, 2013 (5:55 am)
Rockauto now has a available a carbon impregnated replacement by ATP. Avoid the NAPA 4068 EnviroSheild, it is treated with Biosheid 75 and emits a lungs and eyes irritant as well as an odor. Look at Biosheild website. The chemical works because it has many tiny spikes on molecule that puncture cell of microbial and very likely human cells as well. I certainly can not think of a reason it would not. It may also cause itching.
Apr 29, 2013 (5:22 am)
Last time in they replaced pads and a caliper and turned rotors on rear at 28,000 miles. I'm a bit unhappy that they turned instead of replaced which means when the rears are up for service it will mean new rotors out of my pocket instead of just turning. The reason was odd wear on rotors, not to the outside edge, an apparently drag since one side was worn more than 3 mm more than opposite side.
I also have been noting for a long time a bit of instability in suspension effecting tracking unless on glass smooth road. Gave me the impression of someone not professional at using a Pogo stick.
Now 29,948 miles, when braking I feel the vehicle point left a small amount and return when brake is released. Brake drag? Possibly but it gets more complicated. The Pogo stick control has advanced to the point that it is worrisome for keeping it between the lines traveling with traffic. It gives me the impression of loose joints on arms, bad ball joints, or loose wheel bearings. Really hard to say if one cornered causing all of it or it is all four corners.
If that is not enough instability, add in that I'm now feeling slight play on input side of rack. (I think this vehicle uses rack and pinion) On older vehicles that had power steering strong enough to hold against road bump input, this likely would not be an issue. With this setup and not perfectly smooth road I have to constantly adjust to keep it between the lines and even get slower than prevailing traffic.
Has anyone run into these issues, individually or in combination? I'm not sure what is going on, only that it is becoming very disconcerting.
Recap: Car takes a slightly left heading when brake applied and returns when brake released. Brakes or bearings or suspension?
Car feels unstable as a small bump catches one tire and seems to pass that energy to the other corners in an unvertical fashion. Bushings, joints, or what?
Steering input has slight play allowing or adding to wandering on the road. Rack and pinion (too much play between rack and pinion gears), play in U-joints on steering shaft, or play in steering column shaft?
Someone please tell me they did not use that same crappy shaft tensioner they used on all the Taurus except first generation. Those vehicles had more holding by the power steering than this one so if they used the same junk it is little wonder it is failing by 30,000 miles. Those Taurus would fail for me around 60,000 miles. That is three of them. The first generation used spring steel clips and was still good at 150,000 miles. The rack and tie-rod ends had failed on it. All of the earlier generations of Taurus used the same design stabilizer bar links on front. And they all would fail early because of the poor quality of rubber boots. The boots would desintegrate allowing dirt and moisture in wearing the joints out.
Any input will be helpful.
#2964 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [e_net_rider]
Apr 29, 2013 (2:37 pm)
That pull to the left when you apply the brake. Does the temp make a difference? My 2012 Mustang does this, especially when I first drive the car and it's cold out, but it doesn't feel like the usual brake pull, I think it might be the electric power steering. My car only has 6000 miles. I talked to a co-worker who has a 2013 Escape, he has a similar issue.
It's not enough of a bother that I have gone back to the dealer, it seems much better now that the weather's warmer.
#2965 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [toomanyfumes]
May 01, 2013 (7:43 am)
Temp not connected to my issue.
Although temp changes can affect some issues, example, ice forming adding unbalanced weight, a grease or lubricant that has been applied unequally from wheel to wheel and is stiffer when colder. Coefficient of expansion might cause some rare situations especially where there is a difference of material at a connection point or nexis. Example, ABCM, the electro-mechanical portion. If engineering did not properly design for temperature extremes including allowable tolerances of machining or fit, the housing being of one material, bored for pistons that actually controll the fluid/pressure to individual calipers, one of the pistons might be at the maximum allowable design tolerance and it binds when the temperature reaches a certain point. That would give uneven brake apply.
One thing for sure, with the addition of ABCM, that is anti-lock, traction control portion, stability, the brake system has become a lot more complex. Just because you feel a pull to the left when braking, you can no longer assume it is the caliper on the right not applying, but possibly a malfunction in the ABCM or its control module or a sensor.
Is it the same on all road surfaces? Make sure tire pressure is even, at least within 1/2 PSI of each other. Has a RFB, road force balance been done. They are really good at eliminating tire issues. But just rotating tires, because of existant wear patterns, can alter how the vehicle feels, even if there is not eye-ball detectable difference. If the problem moves after rotation, then it is likely tire/wheel related.
What temps? Why do you think EPS?
As with mine, if you are rolling straight and stays straight when releasing steering wheel, however applying brake veers toward oncoming traffic, it is braking related. But bad/loose part in suspension, a bad wheel bearing, could be shifting under the force of braking resulting in the veering to a side. Still, you say temp related so I'd chase that to the end.
#2966 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [e_net_rider]
May 01, 2013 (8:02 am)
Update. Talked to Lincon, they say I can take to any Ford Lincoln. Checked a couple of alternative dealers and decided to pass on local ford since they also use rent a wreck if you car stays and use a third party mop and bucket for clean up. Went to next closest Ford Lincoln. Mechanic said he did not see problem. Test drove with service writer, he did not see, but offered his boss. Boss said issue was with road surface and run-around. If it was the road, then we needed to drive on a different road. He mentioned something about road crown and felt it was going no where I left. But a couple of miles down the road I tried braking a few times in right and left lane, high point being to left and more slope in right lane. Against what I would have thought, the veer to the left was worse in the right lane. Say What? I turned around. Now out to lunch, then more run-around, and talk to his boss who happens to be at lunch. I wait. Surprise, at that time a Lincoln rep is there, we ride, he drives, yes there is a problem. Great, at least an admission. But he insists not brakes and wants align check. OK, it is out a bit, tow on front and rear, creating a slight angle. So aligned, my pocket, and problem still exists. The align has reduced the poor straight line control on bump, four-corner bouncing, and the bad effect of steering input play since it is likely applying less pressures against the steering dampening. And tires will need to settle to new settings.
It looks like they only touched toe settings. Camber and caster settings read the same, within tolerances, but definitely not centered on ranges.
Waiting on call back from Lincoln rep since they said they'd pass message, but I won't bet on it. (He bet align would take care of problem)
#2967 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [toomanyfumes]
May 02, 2013 (4:19 am)
Tried a troubleshooting thing yesterday that I had been absent minded over, probably because it worked for the hard pedal issue somewhat diagnosis. And in my mind it showed improper brake bleed after front brake repair then showing hard pedal and poor braking on sequential braking attempts. Almost certain improper brake bleed led to improper function of ABCM. And they would not do improper brake bleed a second time when rear brakes were worked on? Right?
My improper brake bleed affecting centering of pistons/parts internal to ABCM is just a guess since I don't have actuall details of parts.
But, I started that brake pedal press as far as possible while stopped. Note, the first time the pedal slowly settled to limit like a leaking piston cup in a master cylinder would. I've done this about three times so far and after the first one I could tell a tremendous decrease of the vehicle trying to dart toward oncoming traffic. As of yesterday afternoon, it almost was gone. And so far, after each improvement it was not working back toward the worse end of situation. I will be passing that info back to those who did not see a problem.
#2968 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [e_net_rider]
May 02, 2013 (9:37 am)
Bleeding the brakes is to get rid of H2O &/or air in the lines. As a result of your pedal pressing, where did the H2O and air in the lines go?
#2969 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [euphonium]
May 03, 2013 (6:23 am)
Bleeding does more than just remove air or moisture.
Hydraulic brakes stated as a simple master cylinder and slave system. With front and rear slaves at some point mechanisms were introduced such as proportioning valves. An equal force to the rear brakes would result in rear brakes locking up creating a dangerous skid. A simple form with piston and springs allowed a maximum amount of fluid pushed to rear while more pressure/pedal could be applied to front. A better method employed by Mazda for a number of years before Ford adopted (earlier Taurus and others) was a pressure control mechanism that varied rear brakes according to weight on rear axle. It was at rear axle with an arm and link between body and axle. More weight on rear, the arm moved more allowing greater braking on rear. At a time maybe 60's vehicles started using what was dubbed safety brakes. Part of that was the dual in-line pistons of the master. If one failed the other took over usually with less braking. Variations on this occured with springs between the piston & cup of each portion. Some sent fluid from one piston to front, the other rear. Some vehicles crossed that relation with pressure from one piston going to one front brake and diagonal rear brake.
Eventually the standard seemed to be a dual master cylinder plus a separate diverter and proportioning valves. Some combined the proportioning and diverter into a single assembly. Part of diverter, along with sending fluid to each brake, included valving/pistons to prevent total failure such as a burst line. The sudden flow toward that slave would overcome the spring allowing piston to at least partially block total loss of pressure allowing other three brakes to provide some braking.
Air in system, bad news, it compresses. Sometimes small amounts of air get past rubber/neoprene sealing cups at pistons. Line routing can minimize migration away from problem area. Often that seal is damaged because of corrosion resulting from moisture in fluid. Brake fluid absorbs water from air, leave a container of it open and observe over weeks. Mercedes had as part of its scheduled maintenance a requirement to annually bleed brakes and every two years replace fluid. Non-corroding parts have helped eliminate that need, but water boils much lower than brake fluid.
A whole new era with anti-lock brakes, traction control, and electronic stability control. Most now look like a dual-master, four slaves, and the ABCM between the master and slaves. ABCM being controlled by computer that determines proper output from various sensors.
That ABCM reminds me of the valve body from an automatic transmission pre-electronic control. A nightmare of channeling to route fluid/pressure to the appropriate point, a check valve, springs and plungers, mechanical solenoids, pressure sensors, dividers, adders, multipliers, on and on. Electronics have removed much of that, but still the system needs to stay in balance for what might be non-computer control braking. The computer sits idle until it realizes a situation such as one wheel not turning or it has only one wheel turning.
Regardless of added computer safety factors, the objective is proper braking without the computer having to take over.
I can not speak specifically to the ABCM in this vehicle, but some earlier ones with the internal bores, pistons, and springs to provide proper fluid to each brake, had a piston and springs, even pistons with springs between, which generally controlled fluid for a pair of brakes, so at least two such bored cut into cavity of ABCM. The piston or pistons needed to be centered within the bore and may not have been self centering or doing so after an improper brake bleed or the burst line situation scenario mentioned earlier as part of divertor valve discussion.
Will a brake bleed fix my issue? Maybe, maybe not, but it seems a logical step in diagnosing. Much like a vehicle that does not track properly, if visual inspection shows nothing, you might rotate tires or alignment check.
I only point up all the extra detail to show how confused I am.
Bottom line, vehicle will dart toward left upon brake apply. I know this is dangerous and would like to get it resolved without tearing the vehicle apart, but to do nothing because they can not pinpoint the problem is wrong.
#2970 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [e_net_rider]
May 03, 2013 (9:41 am)
Thank you for the education.
#2971 of 2971 Re: Brakes and Control [euphonium]
May 07, 2013 (2:30 pm)
Little I know and fwiw. Update, cruising interstate something felt off and I took a close look at steering wheel. Turns out that bunch at OC Welsh are incapable of a proper alignment because the wheel is now clockwise of center. I got that service followup call yesterday and told them of that and the brake problem. Again asked if I wanted to trade. And then told not to bring back. And still waiting on callback from Lincoln.